Yánis Varoufákis, la fin de l'Europe et de l'Euro ? [EN DIRECT]

Jenny’s varoufakis bottom we’ve also already punch in each participant’s central internet shimmer Aleppo not move of sweat on Kara the vicuna sorcerer of he knows and I’m going to speak in French and in English for the translation and my community come to translates after E and we’ve got a translator for the tough question so how are you today very well I’ve slept well in Paris and I’m very pleased to report of the weather is better than it was in Athens when I left yesterday how you’re afraid of what’s happening in Europe right now terrified why we are experiencing a postmodern 1930s our generation had it’s 1929 moment in the year 2008 and I’m afraid that history is repeating itself in a farcical way but also quite faithfully the monetary system especially in Europe which was designed like the 1920s gold standard started deconstructing the authorities continued business as usual the more their policies failed the more authoritarian they became in imposing them shifting the losses from the banking sector that created the losses and the crisis onto the shoulders of the weakest citizens beginning in Greece Ireland Portugal eventually France and Germany the result of this deflationary crisis that was created just like to the nineteen early 1930s was the rise of political monsters salvini is a carbon copy of mussolini carbon copy of mussolini the same narrative same promises I’ll make you proud again to be tallied the same demonization of the roma of the foreigners of the brown people of europe of the establishment in the interests of Gabon power to make the establishment stronger we’re experiencing this the same thing again the reason why some was created the democracy in Europe movement back in 2016 there is why I got into politics from university life was precisely because some of us could see that this is exactly what was going to happen after 2008 so yes terrified how can you explain that if our politician don’t take on Thomas your own to to to kick out the the fascism or to kick out extremism because it cannot because they’ve got the financial system to behind them well it’s my opinion that they didn’t see it coming in the same way that politicians takes our cuisine his lot regard and so on they could not see the bankruptcy of Societe Generale they could not see the bankruptcy of BNP paribas yeah Merkel could not see the bankruptcy of Deutsche Bank they could not see it coming in America Hank Paulson the former Goldman Sachs Chairman president george w bush at the time in 2007 they could not see they could not believe that this wonderful edifice you know lehman brothers of financialization what Ben Bernanke himself the former chairman of the Fed had called the Great Moderation they could not see that it was not moderate it was a completely imbalanced architecture that was going to collapse so they didn’t see the collapse came when the collapse I am NOT agree with you you don’t already know well you said that this is a consider I mean they had no idea it was coming why because they had believed their own propaganda you see I am as an economist in the 1990s I spent hours clashing with fellow economists who believed we were proclaiming the end of risk they were proclaiming maybe you remember the term risk less risk because they believe that with financialization the creation of these financial engineer derivative models they were cutting risk up into tiny pieces Presidio’s they collateralized debt obligations and that so they cut them up in tiny pieces and they were dispersing them across the world of the globe which meant that no one was holding too much debt in one pool and therefore they held a lot of debt but each morsel of the debt correspond to two different people and different bonds and some of it was

private some of it was public some of it was Greek some of it was Japanese or Frenchmen so they thought that they had created the perfectly balanced capital financial capitalist model that was beyond boom and bust remember Gordon Brown a very smart person who became eventually Prime Minister in Britain but he was a finance minister a person whose labor he was so sore tomorrow but James offered and he came out with a theory as treasurer Chancellor of Exchequer in Britain that we now are moving into a period when they will never be crises again the end of boom and bust so they had believed that they there is no I mean you said you disagree with me but please don’t because the leaders of Lehman Brothers the CEOs CFOs the board of Blum could never imagine that Lehman Brothers would go broke never the leaders of the American Insurance Group could never see it coming little you know the CEO of Barclays Bank of the city Sheila could never see that because they were making so much money and they assumed that they were on a conveyor belt but this was it now the politicians in power from the 1990s onwards we’re in power because they were the ones who where the political mouthpieces of the riskless risk story I remember even a former communist Massimo D’Alema who was Prime Minister of Italy mmm he had grown up through the the Communist Party of Italy I remember him coming out in 1996 to the statement he went to visit in New York City and he saw a Wall Street in action he came back saying you know I’m a communist or have been a communist on my life but I have to say that I saw how capitalist works now and it has gone beyond crisis so the political personnel that we’re whose campaign financing was provided by the bankers had believed the story of the bankers my profession my academic economists the mainstream not all of us but the mainstream had completely adopted this view of a general equilibrium that’s the term that they used so anybody who said that you know this is complete imbalance in a state of of precarious disequilibrium was considered to be um an old lefty who is refusing to understand that now we have a new paradigm that was another expression that they ways so you asked me to go back to our original question why can they do something about fascism well because before the crisis they couldn’t see the guys is coming when the crisis came they panicked completely panicked and they operated like firefighters who are in a state of panic they think they will be consumed by the flames so they attack the flames not the center of the epicenter of the fire so for instance when Greece went bankrupt the Greek state would bankrupt in 2010 what do they do they spent hours and hours and hours trying to find out ways of giving money to the Greek surgery so that she could give it to the French and the German banks in order to plug the hole of the French and German banks and what will happen with the Greek debt we’ll see that we will deal with it at some point so they lied to their parliamentarians in the Buddhist tag in your national assembly here they said I will this is solidarity with grace would get the money back what it was it was a bailout for Societe Generale in finance bank and so they they created a huge problem but they pushed it into the future okay so they don’t know the carpet they put it exactly like the like stupid children they break of ours and put it under the carpet thing it’s gone away so so okay so number one priority when the crisis that they had never expected to have it happened was to plug the holes of the banking system that was financing them financing their political parties their government even some financing that was quite humane and quite you know socially acceptable like for instance Gordon Brown whom I mentioned earlier was funding the National Health Service out of a City of London’s taxes so there was a Faustian bargain between the sort of Democrats in power at the time in Britain but also in German in elsewhere and here the first in bargain was we turn a blind eye let the bankers do whatever they want because they know how to handle risk it’s riskless after all and we take a few crumbs of of their huge profits to fund hospitals but the moment that those all of those banks went bankrupt every single bank in Europe went bankrupt in 2008 2009 2010 we don’t put the glass-steagall Act just after a what just stick you’ll act you know what it’s

a glass they say because you know they had they were in power because they had take taken the glass-steagall act out they were in power because they were presenting the financial sector and when the financial sector went under they lacked number one they lacked the analytical capacity to understand what happened and to confront with this analytical noise you know Roosevelt in 1933 knew what had happened in 1929 he was elected in order to confront the bankers he had said especially in the 1936 campaign the bankers hate me and I consider the hatred to be a badge of honor for me yeah the Sarkozy Lagarde shredder Gordon Brown Papandreou in Greece okay there were being financed by these people they had believed that banking was safe so when it goes down and the phone call comes says you know Prime Minister president Chancellor the ATMs will stop functioning today until we give them six hundred billion euros in Germany two hundred billion years here in in France unless we give money to the Greek state to give to to a bank at that point these people who didn’t understand what happened we’re panicking and they said okay we’ll plug those holes because we can’t have the ATM’s of working so they did whatever it takes to keep the ATMs but whatever it takes meant socialism for the bankers and austerity for everybody else and when you create this kind of large scale of sanity in the middle of the worst crisis is 1929 what you’re creating is the economic conditions for the birth or rebirth of a schism and then you can’t stop the fascists because you’ve given birth to them they’re your children and even if you don’t like them even if you want to kill them oh yeah you just can’t sir so you know and also there was wishful thinking these are marginal people Golden Dawn in Greece what would they do yeah lepen she will never get elected maybe she won’t but lepen does not need to get elected she has poisoned french politics without being elected she made Francois Hollande push legislation through your National Assembly that is racist she doesn’t have to win really say in order to be in power the fascists are in power even if they don’t win government and those who you know and what happens to the lands of the world to the Malkin’s of the world they fade away like Hindenburg in the 1930s they get swept away they feel the very public they felt they welcomed in control they felt a Hitler we can control him even use him no you cannot you know breed the beast or you know allow the serpent’s egg to hatch and then control it let me help you sorry from for my French accents I’m going to take my French accent sorry for my Greg I know we love it we love it so don’t you think that’s our middle political party feed the beasts when they don’t listen to the referendum when they screw people with referendum when they make vote they make when they make them vote again people don’t forget that what is your opinion about referendum well I believe very strongly in moving towards a Swiss model in Europe a combination of a parliamentary process especially federal parliamentary process with very frequent direct democracy actions like referenda but that’s something we need to be educated at if you look at the the United Kingdom of Britain you know they had three referenda out since the beginning of time one was in 1975 to validate the membership of the European Common Market then they had another referendum for proportional representation that didn’t go very well I thought I had the Praxis referendum in 2016 when you have a referendum every 10 20 years citizens are not trained to do work whereas the Swiss they have one every week so oh do you explain that the population is not trained to express their citizen voice this is because of the major cause of the polity cause of an education system because of what no it’s because we don’t live in democracies we live in oligarchies the whole point you see we make the mistake of thinking let me speak as a Greek now for a moment we make them a mistake of thinking that our democracy is a successor to Athenian democracy it is not Athenian democracy it only lasted for a few decades and it was very flawed in the sense that the

women didn’t vote the slaves didn’t world of course not even the migrants voted but at least it was very interesting in the sense that the majority of the demos of the citizens who had the vote were poor so it was a Aristotle defined Athenian democracy as a system where the poor government heard courtesy of being the majority and on the basis of EC gorya that is that the right to be heard and for their views to be judged on the basis of their merit not on the basis of who you are now that was a remarkable experiment flawed but remarkable our democracies the French Republic the Greek Republic now the United States Constitution British Parliament zone this is a direct descendant of the Magna Carta the Magna Carta was not about democracy it was about the right of the Barons and the Lords to keep their loot from the king so effectively we are oligarchy is an extension that’s my understanding of it it’s an extension of the right of the Barons whether they are the landed gentry or these days industrialists bankers and so on to keep their money to keep their privileges in an association with the state with the people providing through a process of consultation irregular consultation the democratic legitimacy for the oligarchy if you read the Federalist Papers upon which the American Constitution which is a beautiful piece of text it’s a beautiful text of the American Constitution you read it and and you feel I feel elated as a Democrat exert it but the Federalist Papers that explain the whole the whole point is how to keep to prevent the demos from ruling for how to give them a sense that every four years they get consulted right but of course I don’t rule we have checks and balance so our democracies we say you know why is that people are not schooled why are we not trained in democracy because we live in a system the purpose of which is to keep the demos out of democracy and to give the demos a sense of being consulted of having power when they don’t and especially with the European Union if you look at the year by the way the construction of the European Union the European Union was created like a cartel of big business and big interests the purpose of which was to keep even national parliaments with the limited consultation processes out of series decision-making so you know Brussels is not doesn’t suffer from a democratic deficit it’s like saying that the Moon suffers from an oxygen deficit there’s no oxygen deficit of the Moon there’s no oxygen similarly there’s no democracy in Brussels at all and it’s not meant to be there the European Parliament is there in order to provide a cover for the fact that all the this is a cartel operating in the interests of big business so we need to keep fighting to push this frontier back in order to have small tiny victories for the demos so that the demons can be reinserted into our democracies and referenda are one such example and you know look at Ireland for instance remember the Lisbon Treaty okay they asked the Irish people to vote and they said no so they asked them to vote again and it would keep asking them until they give the right answer remember our referendum in Greece in a fifth on 5th of July 2015 okay unfortunately my friend and prime prime minister tsipras asked the people to vote hoping that they would vote against us so he would legitimize his surrender they didn’t vote against is devoted for us so what did he do that not that evening he surrendered nevertheless and completely overturned the people’s verdict so when you have incidents like you know the Irish referendum the curricular firend room what you end up with is is cynicism you feed the beast you feed the beast then you allow Sylvanian lepen to present themselves as the champions of democracy and and and that is a major defeat for democracy so you just explain to me that the European Union it’s like cattle yeah don’t you remember the first name of the European Union the first name of the opinion the president of Zoo no no the first name what did we call the European Union before it was called the European Union no disease no no you saw the European communities of Coal and Steel exactly that’s a cartel the cartel of like OPEC OPEC is a cartel for oil the European

Union was a cartel for coal and steel then after that they brought in the car makers after that they got in the French farmers the large-scale French and French farmers through the Common Agricultural Policy it was all a cartel that was expanding and which needed free trade and the common currency to function like you know Opik needs a common currency which is a dollar in the case of oil and it needs free trade of oil in order to for Opik to function and this is how we construct the opinion I’m not criticizing it maybe it was a good idea may maybe Schuman and money and all these people who were right that was the only way to stop war but let’s be honest with each other we did not create a European Union of European People’s we created a European Union of carmakers steel producers large-scale farming banking okay and then we created the European Parliament which is the only Parliament in the history of the world that does not have the right to digit rate in order to legitimize all that now I’m not against the European Union oh yeah absolutely you want to change the capital this is where I disagree with jean-luc mélenchon and the other comrades on the left because you know there could be no someone to stay in the European Union well not last time I spoke to him it was win year 2015 but it’s very well known that the m25 our movement and elements of the left that fall under the Lexx it left-wing exit banner and it’s a it’s a legitimate argument I’m I don’t believe in in I believe that we should have open frank discussions as comrades it’s a legitimate legitimate argument the argument is that the this European Union sucks is horrible it’s neoliberal it’s a cartel of big business so let’s disintegrate it and build democratic socialism within our own countries it’s an argument I thoroughly disagree with that because if we if whatever criticisms we may have about this democracy free zone that is the European Union it’s this integration this is the m25 position my position it’s this integration is only going to benefit the fascists did you create the this political party only for saving Greece or to change the hope from inside well the fact that we inaugurated the m25 are the folks being a theater in Berlin answers the question it’s a pan-european movement our line as Greeks in Greece is that Greece will continue to asphyxiate as long as Europe is disintegrating and Europe will be disintegrating as long as countries like Greece France South France West France Eastern’s are disintegrating there is no solution at the level of the nation-state those who advocated solutions of the level of nation-state may be well-meaning but in the end they feed the beast and we have to use – effective to take over the institutions the European Union not to disintegrate them but to deploy them in the in the interests of a pan-european progressive agenda so let me just give you a very simple example take the European Investment Bank the European Investment Bank the EIB the centered in in Luxembourg if we didn’t have it we should invent it the last thing I want to see is that this integration the European Investment Bank I want us to take it over and to make it the center of a pan-european green new deal that funds the green transition green investment in energy transport the transition of industry the transition of agriculture to a green economy to the tune of 500 billion euros every year the European Investment Bank can do it it has the instruments to do it I don’t want to see it disintegrate I want us progressives to take it over ok I’m going to ask you a tough question to me through a diversion would you explain to me and to us what is an exponential function an exponential function well it’s any function where the rate of growth follows e to the power of X or e to the power alpha plus beta X in other words it is a rate of growth that takes off with increasing speed so it’s like when the rates touch the sky eight places the sky yes is the sky Z so you do you think that’s it’s a sustainable sustainable system to have an exponential go of the monetary phones in the financial system

why well I mean you let me give you an example speck spinel growth because I didn’t mention our generations 1929 moment which happened in 2008 okay year 2001 2001 remember when the the the dot-com bubble burst the new economy Nasdaq and so on came crashing sheet at that point the the Fed the Federal Reserve other alan greenspan stabilized refloated capitalism that crisis did not last long during that year as that crisis was being stabilized by the Federal Reserve global income global income was around 55 trillion just say 55 there are too many zeros to worry about 55 the total size of financial derivatives was 70 okay so total income another world 55 total derivatives 70 2007 exponential growth okay this is this global income had risen because of globalization from 55 to 70 from in six years as a lot from 55 to 70 growth in the size magnitude volume of the river others from 70 to 780 sooo nice so to put it bluntly planet Earth was not big enough for this bubble say burst in 2008 so no every child knows when they are on the beach and they take sand and create a sand hill that if you add more sound at some point the goo boo how do you season excuses do you see it coming oh look things are far worse than that you ask me how do I see the next crisis I wish we could have the luxury of answering this question because the previous crisis hasn’t gone away it’s not that this the crisis of 2008 has gone away and now we are bracing ourselves for the next Isis it’s worse far far worse the crisis of 2008 is getting worse it is proceeding the more the divorce globalists the the IMF the Banque de France the Buddhist Bank and so on celebrate the end of the crisis hour now where the crisis the mortgage should know that this crisis of 2008 is getting worse it is metamorphosizing it takes different forms in different places so in germany it takes the form of very low unemployment but negative interest rates that int it into the pension funds of the Swabian housewife and she turns away from Merkel and supports alternative Road Odenton races increases a great depression in France you have complete inequality that is you have parts of France that are booming and other parts of France that look like Greece therefore the delays you know yeah the generation sorry my French China is now experiencing slowed down because of Europe’s inability to deal with the crisis that began in 2008 and while we have this crisis the next one is going to hit her but it’s going to hit us while this crisis is continuing in which proportion look the one is the the the one thing we know is that we can never know what form the next crisis is going to take so if I let imagine that we were sitting here and this was 1982 and we agreed that the Soviet Union is past its use-by date that the Soviet economy will collapse let’s say we agreed on we were present when we were prophetic would we be able to predict what form this implosion would take no it would be impossible to know to predict that it would be something like you know the combination of the Afghan war you know Chernobyl you know the failures of perestroika that it would be Yeltsin coming up it would be impossible to know when and how the crisis would take place we would know the crisis will take place yes in mathematics is this term of nonlinearities be getting chaotic events this is precisely what we have if you put that had a gun to my head and you asked me to talk about particular fragilities of wealth capitalism I can mention three or four one is the cielos

not CDOs that we had in in 2008 but the collateralized loan obligations that is very low quality loans taken out by businesses in an environment of zero interest rates that then are collateralized and financial engineering takes them and spreads them around we the last time I looked we have about 1.5 trillion dollars of this this is a fragility the financial system that we should be looking at secondly there in nationalization of public debt in Europe in the eurozone we are moving in precisely the wrong way so most Italian banks now have only talented in them German banks have German debt French banks have French debt – no no all that debt has already been pushed onto your shoulders onto the shoulders of the weakest tax payers that’s another crime against logic so at least that has been taken off the books of the banks and has been spread onto the shoulders of the poor of taxpayers and this is why I’m so livid at what they did with a click that and another source of stability the third one and there will be a fourth one to complete the third one has to do with the fact that Trump is antagonizing China at a time when he’s boosting the budget deficit of the federal government the United States that requires Chinese investors to bite so it’s like me antagonizing you at the same time as needing you to buy my dad a source of fragility I would say and forth AI automation which is silly yeah which is making the natural crisis inducing forces within capitalism even more powerful you talk about AI on the edge ft I pattering trading frequency if I can see know about automation I’m talking about the fact that not take Apple Apple is shifting production our back to the United States ok but if you go and see the factories that they are creating firstly they’re built by robots without construction workers I saw one outside of Austin in Texas it was remarkable it was fascinating fantastic and frightening because there was a huge construction site with ten workers tempted and they were all sitting around tables like this with joysticks and you could see huge trucks completely automated what you know driving past laying pipes and electric electrical circuits and so on with no workers and these factors when they are completely completed we’ll be building the new up laptops with no workers at the problem with those robots is they don’t buy Apple laptops they don’t pay tax yeah but they don’t even buy the stuff so who’s going to buy the stuff people who are subjected to a steady day so yeah capitalism always had this capacity to undermine itself through overproduction through having a capacity to produce a lot more stuff than the workers can consume and that always as Lenin said and Rosa Luxemburg very recently that always creates imperialistic tendencies because you have to find markets outside of your own capitalist hubs and that of course creates geopolitical problems and so on but now this is far worse because for the first time in the history of capitalism new technologies create fewer jobs and they destroy for the first time okay can we talk about dark pool no watch the duct pool in the financial vocabulary and can we talk about financial escape financially even even and if you’ve got some recognization to fight it well it really is the simplest thing in the world to do as long as you have the political will to do it no there’s no political will but technically there’s no problem at the moment we talk about tax havens do you know that you do know but let me remind you or something that we all know but we pretend we don’t that the President of the European Commission was the the leader of the worst tax haven in the history of the world right in the middle of Europe and here’s mr. Janka has the audacity to look at the Greeks and say uh you know you’re cheating on your tax what you are the leader of tax cheats and of tax cheating turned into an industrial-strength industry enterprise so we you know Apple where are they

hiding their profits in Ireland how do they do it on the basis of European Union legislation which is secret so you’ve got you’ve got an you know Holland and Ireland are conspiring with the full support of the European Union to create a system where Apple pays only 2% of its profits in tanks so Cayman Islands is not a problem you know Singapore is not a problem of course they are problems this is but it is our own legislation and the fact that we are run by elites whose purpose is to create acts havens in the center of Europe in London in Ireland in Luxembourg in the Netherlands in order to silence – of all these prophets so your advice if I summarize correctly your life you know advice no advice so doing this because it because he’s look when the technicals in the solution is so simple and what is lacking is a political will look remember the the the beautiful expression by Stigler that I can never convince somebody who salary depends on not being convinced so I’m not going to give advice to somebody who will lose their job if they listen to my advice so what we’re doing instead of giving advice who create a political movement to take over those institutions and develop the political will in the center of government another tool and tax havens it’s not wishful thinking because your political party it’s so small you going to do something with your little house and say yeah ok look so cool pay your tax and no well I think that is what is wishful thinking is to think that we can give advice to younger and have younger change the world we knew that is wishful think that’s utopian what I think is far less utopian and far less wishful thinking is to remember that all big changes the world happen by 10 people who go together and we’re pissed off and they said no we’re going to change the world and then the tent become a hundred hundred become a thousand one thousand become Millions you have turned to make it to make it happened I have no idea what I do know is that unless we try we’ll never find out okay so do you have to invade Luke Samba with our army directly not know if she should I hate armies and I hate prisons that’s what I believe in social movement you know the m25 is a small organization but very active organization in Luxembourg Oh Oh many people I have a thousand not in Luxembourg across Europe this is our membership but no seriously you asked me about what is the solution is to change minds to use the power of ideas there are millions of people are there already already to join a movement that has a clear agenda an agenda that is not nationalist and it’s not specific to a nation state that is pan-european which is sensible which is moderate and radical at the same time because the only way to be moderate these days is to be radical oh do you communicate how do we exchange or do you share with extreme that’s you consider that’s extreme well I tell you what you took – to them like [ __ ] you like media talk about to extreme is very humanist you don’t have the right to treat anyone like a [ __ ] the great crime of the Democrats in the United States of America is that they demonize those who voted for Trump they look at them and they say you are riffraff you are third-rate you should not have the vote you were idiots you were duped by Vladimir Putin and Facebook that is what you do if firstly you are misanthropic and secondly if you’re a fool because there is no safer way of reacting Trump then treating Trump’s and portal supporters as one dimension what you should do is you should listen to them because the majority of people who voted for Trump the majority of people who voted for Trump especially in the brown belt areas that determined his victory had voted for Obama in 2000 so they were not racist by definition they were not racist they were not dumb what they are are is angry if you want to understand why people vote for Trump forget Putin and Facebook they would and look at one simple statistic in 2016 for the first time since nineteen forty nine more than half of families in America

could not afford the cheapest car which is a nice on the trades for $14,000 and when I say they can’t afford I don’t only mean that they didn’t have fourteen thousand dollars to buy it they didn’t even have enough credit worthiness to get a loan to buy it and the inner in the United States of America if you don’t own a car you’re dead you can’t go to the supermarket you can’t take your kids to school and you can’t get a job because your job is not going to be around the corner you need a car to go to it so in the sense that at the very same time you had extreme money making in 2016 never before did the top 0.1% have so much money and deprivation this is why Trump managed to win and because Hillary Clinton at the same time was going around Wall Street and making promises of letting them run higher the game like they where when her husband was president of the United States so what do you do when you face I mean I lived in the United States I had such experiences I had the experience of being in a bar with somebody who was in favor of complete anarchy regarding gun laws I remember meeting a lorry driver who was a great education to me because only we thought my car was being repaired in the middle of nowhere I think it was in Idaho somewhere and I was having a beer with this guy while waiting for my car to be repaired he he was having a hamburger and he told me his life story and it was heart wrenching because he had he was a businessman who lost who got sick at some point he was not insured he had to spend 250,000 dollars he saw he was bankrupted had no insurance he lost his family he was divorced and he was in his sixties driving a lorry and what astonished me was that he turn against Obamacare he was against socialized health and outside22 understand that you were destroyed because of lack of a National Health Service and you’re against the National Health Service and we’re against Obama didn’t yes because the question of pride for me I do not want the law to tax anyone in order to look after me what I am very angry about is that I couldn’t look after myself now if at that point you look at this guy and you say you’re a [ __ ] you’re a fascist you’re an idiot at that point you’re committing a crime against humanism and you lose him what do you need to do at that point you need to reason with him you need to you have to learn from him his sense of dignity is important if you don’t try to understand and get a feel for his sense of dignity Trump will so we have a duty like we did in the nineteen thirties people did not become Nazis in the 1930s no Hitler promised them a job he said to them I will give you back dignity we of the left failed to compete against Hitler’s narrative so instead of turning against the people who had a manifestation of our failure we should think twice about how we are going to approach those people you put Mike on the yellowjacket so children it’s a crime against social part it’s it’s like what’s it say John are the children of austerity and the children first arity can be wrong in the way they express their anger like all children that scream and shout when wronged children oh oh yeah of course we’re all children but this is legend in particular the children of austerity there the starett now a long story no it’s a product of food dog my no no it’s a product was there it what is not to Dogma no it’s a practice it is a complete it’s a practice it’s it’s very tangible it’s not an idea its tell it is an idea as well everything is an ideology but the village on did not do what they did because somebody had an idea they do are doing what they did because the price the policies that were developed in the laboratory of bleakness that is Greece the policy of a study that were first tried out in I can’t and developed before taken by the same troika and transplanted to Ireland to Portugal to Spain to Italy and eventually to France and to Germany these policies in the middle of the

worst investment crisis in the history of capitalism this is this is very important to note I’ve had this discussion with Emmanuel macron before he became president it was a disagreement that the two of us had this is your booty no he’s not my buddy but when I was in government he was the only decent person that I came across from the French government and you know why should I hide it he was smart and he was supportive he understood that what was happening in Greece was detrimental to the interest of Europe and to the interest of France so he tried a little bit to help us francois hollande slapped him down and down he stayed but i appreciate the fact that he tried and that in our conversations he was supportive but going back to the situation in France I’ll tell you where my my great is a disagreement with him was about France and it has to do with austerity now the first country to have practice austerity was Germany before 2008 under shredder it was a time when we had the the the rules of the eurozone facing us remember two percent inflation okay three percent maximum deficit for the budget sixty percent of GDP in terms of that and what does shredder do at a time when Germany was the sick man of Europe if you remember because of high unemployment he pushes wages down and cuts down on a public expenditure at a time when the United States of America and wall street in particular was creating a massive boost in financialization in expenditure so the world was going crazy with that debt debt fueled expansion and Germany was shrinking its wages and its public sector at that point Germany gained competitiveness visibie France and the rest of Europe of the eurozone but this is a little bit like free riding because when we have a 2 percent inflation rate target that that was the agreed target France was the only country that had exactly that hit the target yay Greece was at 5 percent 4 percent 3 percent above so was Italy so Spain Germany was at 0.8 percent immediately French business is at a disadvantage vis a vie German business so this is a so austerity during a period of growth whether its debt fuel growth or not doesn’t matter but a period of growth internationally or starett in one country allows it to gain a competitive advantage with a via the countries so steady can work during normal Starion times because you are stealing business from your neighbors this is what it does right and manual this perfectly well and effective and I have heard him he was next to me when he was saying to other people in agreement with me that the problem in Europe is that we are playing a competitiveness game and not a Productivity game because productivity is a game where we can all win competitiveness e-cig is a zero-sum game some win some lose so where is my disagreement with where was my disagreement with most Makram it was in that when I asked him so if you become president what do you intend to do he said well we need to change the architecture of the eurozone in ways that I agreed with we need a common budget we need a way of recycling deficits and and and surpluses we need a common unemployment insurance we need a common investment program massive investment core program that takes surpluses from wherever they are and channels them as green investments especially in the deficit regions we agreed on that where do you disagree it was in the way that he was going to implement it his plan was and he tried to to implement that plan failure yeah badly and I was telling he was going to fail and I’ll explain to you why I thought he was going to fail his plan was a bargain with Merkel and the bargain was very simple I will German eyes French labor through austerity and you will give me a federal budget and what I said to a man well if about a year before he became president was it’s not going to work

because if you sequence it this way you will German eyes French labor and then America will say thank you very much for doing that but you’re getting nothing for me and then you’re and this is a big disagreement says well at least I will have created more competitiveness for France and no because it worked in the 90s in Germany because the rest of the world was boosting investment in a world where investment is at the lowest level in relation to accumulated savings in the history of capital listen imposing austerity upon France will simply depress France and it will depress France and equally different parts of France will be depressed in different ways and you are going to be presiding over an explosion within your country and your European agenda is going to fail this is exactly what happened and the relation as far as I’m concerned are the result of this Germanisation of French labor of austerity imposed upon France in circumstances of very low low investment I’m going to to asking you you took out you talked about the influence of the ocean in United States during the term prediction or their non influence of the Russians in the United States this is all rubbish yeah tell me why your people say put in change the election result in the United States said oh he didn’t it was people who voted for Obama in 2008 who voted for Trump in 2016 and the people who actually insure that Trump would win that the ocean boosts the anchor of those ethnic people listen Vladimir Putin is sitting on his gilded chair in Moscow listening to all that he’s laughing his head off he’s laughing his head off his thing he think you know what he thinks when he is this idiot they give me so much credit I wish I had this power people say to me but he did try to influence the American election said yeah so did I I try to influence the American election I failed and and I can assure you that put him did not succeed in him brexit they do the same thing about Briggs they keep arguing that it was Russian money that and Facebook that tilted the referendum result in favor of brexit I campaigned in Britain against brexit I gave 13 speeches in 13 cities before breakfast against packs it I can tell you that he was not put in and Facebook and Cambridge analytical it was all the supporters of remain people like Tony Blair David Cameron Christine Lagarde Valken SOI bleah every time they opened their mouth to threaten the Brits if you vote for brexit Armageddon is coming I was thinking to myself oh my god breaks it will win shut up can’t you just shut up if you shut up we would defeat blixt every time you warned the Brits against brexit yeah with a German accent or coming from Washington DC or Obama Obama came to Britain to tell the big people of Britain that it should very well to remain in the EU I thought this if I was a brexit here this would be the greatest gift anyone can give me because the last thing the people of Britain need is somebody to tell them that if they do X they will be punished this is like saying them to X because they here are the Brits have the Blitz mentally you say to them that we will punish you this is OK bugger off we would do it and you punish us and see who is going to win in the end and also I’ll tell you why breakfast one because of the way Greece was treated in 2015 now that may sound far-fetched to you but it is not if you think that breaks it won by 1.8% 1.8% I mean of course there are many right-wingers who don’t give a damn about least about the voltage for breaks it but the difference was this 2% and I remember an old lady old socialist trade unionist coming up to me in a town called Doncaster Oh actually no it wasn’t Doncaster it was in Leeds she came up to me after a speech I gave a fiery speech against brexit from a left-wing perspective saying that the European Union sucks it’s horrible it’s all abut we have to stay in because we need to transform it not to disintegrate it but my standard speed she comes up to

me and says Janice when you resigned I cried I love everything you say and everything you do but I’m not going to do as you say I’m going to vote a full brexit because of the way your people were treated the way that you were forced to surrender the way you were treated personally because we are Democrats above all and we prefer to be poor that will have somebody in Brussels telling us that if we give a little bit more money to the poor the ATMs will be closed down by the European Central Bank I am NOT going to stay in the European Union that is dictatorial and treats people like your people the way it did and I can assure you there were lots of people like that in Britain wherever I went I propose another let again an old lady this time in Doncaster that I mentioned before and she came up to me and he said she said look you’re not a that we should transfer staying in the European Union and transform it it’s fantastic but Yan is you’re not our Prime Minister David Cameron is David Cameron is telling us to vote to stay in because he wants to maintain this corrupt establishment in London and in Brussels if you or Jeremy Corbyn or wherever we’re in 10 Downing Street yes I would vote to stay in the European Union the reform it but I’m not going to give them the satisfaction of voting to remain in order for them to continue business as usual now that is why brexit won not Facebook not put in so to go back to my previous question or do you explain that in the European Union the major told us that there is a toll far from OSHA we try to interfere in our local political election that there is a huge huge money spending on propaganda from OSHA because it’s true there is all that but it’s irrelevant you know I don’t think people are stupid I really don’t think people are human in Greece okay in the summer of 2015 we had called for a referendum and we were campaigning for now for no to the ultimatum from the troika even though the Prime Minister wanted the yes but at least we were going out there campaigning some of us were campaigning with our heart in favor of know every single television channel was portraying us me personally as the devil incarnated agent no no no as the devil now I was a devil without any connections to do to Putin right I was a person who wanted to take Greece out of the European Union who wanted to turn Greece into a wasteland they were even images of me they few days before the referendum there was a forest fire like we have in July in Greece regularly and I remember somebody showing me a video of the camera filming the flames horrible horrible image of the burning trees and black smoke with a picture of me superimposed and underneath he wants to destroy I can do this country so if you vote for no for the no option the country will be decimated Armageddon will be out we will join Venezuela and Iran and North Korea all that and what did the people of Greece do 62% now so this I’m giving you as an example how smart people are that they managed to see through the propaganda they you know people are not idiots even if Putin spent huge quantities of money even if he influenced the BBC itself people would not be guided by think of Jeremy Corbyn Jeremy Corbyn was demonized beyond belief before the elections the gender of the last general election in 2017 every single television channel was portraying him as an idiot as dangerous as a complete failure as somebody who is going to destroy the Labour Party and give it the worst possible general election result in the history of the world no and he got the best result since 1945 so the people are not that done so I have no doubt that putting tried to interfere in the same way I have no doubt the United States has interfered in my country like for instance you know effect thing that coulda died in 1967 that saw half of my family being imprisoned yeah they were a bit more effective than putting well at or at least as effective as the Soviet Union was in hangar integrals over IKEA so we’ve seen all that but I really laugh at the suggestion that Putin has any

significant influence on any election or a fair and Umrah self what-what-what brasses is doing is trying to explain the inexplicable their own failure the fact that they lost Britain I mean for god sakes they lost Britain and why did they lose Britain because of the colossal economic mismanagement of the euro crisis this is why they lost Britain in the end because if you think about it from the moment the huge crisis hit in 2008 the idiotic European Central Bank was practicing contract or monetary policy he was contract Trisha Frenchman the worst central banker in the history of the universe huh was increasing interest rates while the world of Phi of Kappa financialized capitalism was collapsing and he did it again in 2011 you had contractionary monetary policy and austerity in the middle of a crisis whereas in Britain at least the Bank of England was printing money as if there is no tomorrow so what happens 1 million Europeans moved to Britain okay and that created tensions in parts of Britain that were suffering from their own austerity so this is why and at the same time they have performed effectively a coup a coup d’etat against our government in 2015 this is why they lost Britain and then they blame it on Putin okay they have the breakdown someone continued about the prism of economy quoi what’s your opinion about China and what is your opinion about plate that to be the predatory mind of the China on the job an asset and especially in the Greek asset in in the French asset like airport or stuff like that off port look again don’t believe everything you see could mean you see me coming of course don’t believe everything you read the Chinese are very sensible compared to the French compared to the Greeks compare the Greek oligarchies I mean the Chinese rulers are far smarter and more sensible and moderate than the US authorities the u.s. oligarchy the French oligarchy the germinal okay I wish our oligarch is were are smart as the Chinese one maybe that’s why I’ve got a free place in China no no they don’t have a free press in China but you know what we don’t have a free press in in Greece friends oh you tell me yeah I’m very pleased I’m speaking to an independent outlet and I think that is my answer to your question about France but I have to tell you out let me tell you about Greece Greece we it has television radio and newspaper industry that looks extremely competitive in the sense that there are many of them one line one line that is completely informed by the fact that they are all bankrupt and they all survive on the basis of advertisements that come from the banks that are bankrupt which survive at the base of money and money that comes from the troika so mmm the Chinese at least are more honest they have a Chinese Communist Party and they give the line they don’t even pretend to have a pluralist play press like we do here in here no but look let me first a small preface so that I’m not misunderstood when I tell you what my answer to your question about Chinese I disdain the tyranny of the Communist Party the fact that there are political prisoners the way minorities are being treated the fact that if you’re a dissident you disappear the lack of repress let’s be clear that is unacceptable we will fight against it okay point number one point number two we must be very careful before we accuse others of tyrannical at knowledge erikak anti-democratic processes especially the Chinese when here in Europe democracy is a figment of our imagination in my first Eurogroup meeting I put this down in my book I remember which one adults in the room know exactly I remember I had a discussion with Michelle szczepan your finance minister at the time in which I outlined to him what I would say in my first year ago meeting and he was very happy with it because I was going to be very moderate and we said listen folks I know you probably don’t like the fact that I’m here that we were elected because we’re a left-wing government you have a program for Greece and you are insisting on this and we have a completely different program about this so let’s sit down put the two programs side by side and have a Jain conversation about how to find common ground your program has failed this is why I was elected I was not elected

because Greek sudden became left-wingers I was elected because your program failed where the program may be it’s it’s silly maybe you think it’s silly I think there are good parts in it can we have a discussion please like adults sit down so I said that in the Eurogroup meeting and I said that in the Eurogroup meeting and Michel was happy and he came out and he said oh this is the right way to do it no son and then walkins really demanded the floor and he said verbatim elections cannot be allowed to change economic policy in Greece at which point I took the floor and said this is fantastic news to the Communist Party of China because they believe too that elections should not allow should not be allowed to change economic policy or any parts okay so before we are too critical of the Chinese Communist Party let’s remember the kind of polity we’ve created in Europe and what is being said on your behalf might be half by our elected politicians and what are you doing the end because volcán service line prevailed it was not Michelle’s appends line it was a Iblees line that prevailed and which continues to prevail so okay so now let me ask you a question though about China and I said turnabout okay look the Chinese have a project and their project is to lift China out of poverty they’ve had this project since 1979 1980 and they are succeeding they have a business model which had to fit into which price well let’s consider that but that’s what yeah but that is a project what we are talking about side effects you’re talking about the cost of it yeah the fact of the matter however is that they had to fit that project within globalism globalized capitalism how well did they do that I think they did it superbly they did it superbly and they did it in a way that they have saved us they have saved us we’d not you me necessarily but French capitalism they the captains of industry and banking here they should have a portrait of the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party on the wall and every day they say thank you thank you thank you when 2008 hit your banking system here and destroyed it and Wall Street and City of London and so on two things saved capitalism global capital two things prevented it from completely destroying itself the Fed the Fed and the fact that they printed money as if there’s no tomorrow tomorrow and gave it to the French banks again to the German banks because of the French banks and the German banks had bets that where dollar-denominated of more than one that I have trillion dollars in dollars that they didn’t have and was a Fed that gave them that money effectively we covered their their backside to put it politely that was one factor that prevented the well-to-do people here who are criticizing the Chinese and the Americans from being poverty-stricken today the second factor was China because neither at the United States government nor the European Union had what it took politically to create a boost in aggregate demand at a global level the Europeans because they were in a mess with the eurozone and the rules of the fiscal compact and so on of Maastricht back then and the United States because they don’t have a government the United States right they have something resembling a government you have the Congress going against the president the president going is against the Congress the the it’s very hard for them to make any decisions along the lines of boosting aggregate demand the Fed can operate on its own said was the Chinese that boosted their investment from a very high already 32 percent of GDP to 51 percent of GDP never before has investment reach that highly why did they do that in order to stabilize global the global economy so we owe the the fact that we didn’t have a complete collapse in 2008 we owe to the Chinese okay so let’s remember that before we’re too critical especially the French oligarchy needs to be very respectful of the Chinese authorities we of the left were you know on the street sooner we can be more critical of them than they have the right to be of the Chinese those who are concerned about their

assets and remember your asses exist because of the Chinese and the Fed not because of anything that happened in Paris point number one okay point two point number two let me compare and contrast for my own experience this predatory behavior of the Chinese as part of their project of lifting China out of poverty they have their plan for the Silk Route for maintaining a line a trade route from China all the way to the heart of Europe and the port of piraeus was a central element of that okay now when I moved into the government in January of 2015 I had already inherited a troika program that is Berlin Paris Frankfurt Brussels being behind it that I should sell and when I say I am in the Minister of Finance because I had to sign for it the port of Piraeus to the Chinese for peanuts without any kind of restrictions any kind of conditions my party was against any involvement of the Chinese with Costco none and they considered me to be right-wing because I said hang on a second we needed to discuss with the Chinese conditions that could make this collaboration fruitful both for the Chinese and for us and I initiated a dialogue with the Chinese government and I said to them I don’t care about the price that you pay for the port so too bad it’s not it’s not enough but that’s not my number one priority I have three conditions for you before I even discuss selling it to you condition number one that the workers who worked in the port are not subcontracted and that I have full union rights and they get the believing wage and that yeah and you do not treat them like you’ve been you’ve been treating them in Italy in as well so you want to be communist be communists we can have a proper trade union representation and you’re good when we agree on minimum standards which is what you do when Volkswagen comes to Shanghai you set minimum standards for Volkswagen well I want to do the same thing with you they agreed secondly you’re going to spend if you get a port 180 million euros in 18 months investment minimum investment you take the port you invest in it to create new jobs new facilities upgraded huh to be good steward of that number three number see our country is in the clasps of vicious creditors we need a loan of 10 billion from your government to help us along the way of getting out of our debt prison and we need one and 1.5 billion of that to come immediately because we have pensions to prove not pension but we had actually repayments to make that in their answer monitor find its own a number for an addition that this should be part of a long term strategic partnership where you start investing in our trains because we have 19th century trains in Greece technology parks new bricks folks come here here to start producing stuff rather than simply using Greece as a convict they agreed on everything on everything the the continuation of the story is tragic so much so that we sent the Deputy Prime Minister to to Beijing to sign to monograph the agreement all all happened he comes back and the next morning I was expecting 1.5 billion to come to the Treasury as we had agreed it didn’t only 100 million came and I thought bastards they very negative then the promises would come back if that they would make the rest of the payment three days later to cut a long story short I spoke to the authorities and they confessed to what had happened they had received a telephone call from Berlin cease and desist any agreement with the Greeks hmm first on it because we need to deal with them first and what happened when I resigned after the surrender of our government to the troika Berlin instructed my prime minister to sign the original deal that had none of those conditions so effectively the heart of Europe huh our

decision-makers in Europe went to the went imposed upon both the Greek government and the Chinese government a transfer of a major asset of Greece to the Chinese under conditions that were worse for Europe and worse for Greece and worse for the Chinese then when the Chinese were prepared to accept so when will I hear macron and Merkel talk about the predatory behavior of the Chinese I take this with a gigantic pinch of salt yes right beyond that look the world we live in is the world where cartels are fighting one another you saw what happened with Alstom & Z demons they want to create an even bigger cartel in Europe there even you even have macron attacking the European Commission for having prevented an even greater concentration of industrial power and monopoly within Europe these are games that people play this is this is this is the name of the game in this techno structure that we live in I use techno structure this is John Kenneth Galbraith term to replace the word capitalism because we don’t live in capitalism anymore we live in a petrol structure where you’ve got a centrally planned system plant by large-scale monopolies in this context the way that the Chinese have been behaving is far more moderate and far more palatable than the way that French capital American Capital and German capital has been behaving ok let’s talk now about refugees wool and stuff like that what’s happening race with the refugees to you are you optimistic about the next wave of refugees from the economical crisis from the climate crisis what do we do with this problem we open the border yes like what let them in in which proportion led in every proportion look we Europeans are guilty we are criminals we are criminals at the planetary scale and we are lying to ourselves we need a reality check and we need a morality check for 1000 years we have destroyed the planet we have colonized the world we’ve sent our troops and our colonizers to Latin America to North America to Central America to Asia to Australia to New Zealand everywhere to Africa how could I have not mentioned Africa huh it was all right for a thousand years to be migrants it would be the worst kind of migrants where we export guns death germs steal chemicals huh and we take anything we want what happened was after those 1000 years our continent is getting older and the demographic dynamics get swapped get reversed it is only natural that younger people will be coming from the rest of the world to us now there are two things you can do build a huge wall or let them in there’s nothing else everything else is dumb and that that doesn’t work now lepen the fascists they want a big wall Hillary Clinton the other day advised as Europeans that the only way to defeat lepen is by building the wall ourselves that’s why she does not deserve to be President of the United States now what happens when you build a wall all the happens is the profits of the traffickers increase the deaths increase but nothing changes in the end you cannot stem the human tide by building walls all you do is you boost misanthropy and the prophets of the bad people that’s all you do and the other thing is you create more toxic politics within your country because the problem is that where every time you build the wall why the polity in society within the wall gets even more unsafe becomes even more introverted becomes even more ill at ease with ourselves it was the sign of strength in ancient Greek cities when they decided to demolish the wall every time a son of Corinth or themes won in the Olympic event they would demolish part of the wall as a sign of the fact that they are more confident it is only a Europe that lacks confidence

that builds walls as for the Greek situation if you go to lesbos today and you go to Moria you will see the misanthropy of Europe in action we are keeping people in conditions of a concentration camp they are dying they are suffering when a fraction of a portion of a percentage of the money that we spent on the banks would have made their conditions livable but we keep them in those dehumanizing conditions on purpose it is on purpose it is not a failure of bureaucracy so corruption no we are keeping them in hell on purpose so that they can send a message to people in Syria in Afghanistan in Pakistan in Nigeria in Ghana from wherever they are don’t come a Europe that is doing that is destroying some soul we don’t deserve to exist when we behave like that think of the European Union turkey treaty or agreement that Angela Merkel negotiated in 2015 after having led courageously 1 Millions Ian’s coming to Germany and almost losing the Chancellor position from the backlash within the Christian Democratic Party think of what we did we bribed president and alderman of Turkey to the tune of six billion years we gave an increasingly deranged dictatorial president of Turkey six billion years so that he would allow us to violate international law on refugees because I feel if you’re a refugee and you don’t end up in lesbos you cannot apply for asylum as a refugee you have to be sent to Turkey to do it you are never assessed as a refugee even if you’ve been tortured for political reasons whatever that is a violation of international legislation so we have allowed other one to permit us to violate international legislation by paying him to do it now how can we consider this to be a policy that is consistent with the image the Europeans want of themselves so our position is very simple as diem25 let them in we don’t have a migration crisis in Europe we do not we would never have a migration crisis in Europe we are a gigantic continent mostly an empty continent right mostly an empty country if you look at even large parts of Greece village the Holland yeah Italy here in France in the in Poland people have left they are not there we have large spaces where the richest part of the world okay the problem we have is that we don’t is that we don’t have a European Union we have a problem of migrants concentrating on the Greek islands in a Pedulla in Sicily because we don’t have a European Union let’s talk about the Phoenicians model what is your opinion of dqo system do we have to be in a diggable system or do we have to be no goal going system and what’s your opinion about the energy crisis and the lack of resources well I think it’s crucial that we separate two concepts growth and prosperity this generations task is to separate the two prosperity without physical growth we need to stop physical growth we cannot have more cars on this planet especially the large SUV’s no more diesel no more extraction of fossil fuels yes two more green energy yeah good washing this kind of move long no it’s not because what I’m saying is this if we were in a spaceship yeah yeah yes so but but it’s easier to think of ourselves in a spaceship that is more confined in order to make the point so let’s say we have a spaceship and we decide our scientists tell us our engineer that our oxygen is running out or that we don’t have enough capacity to you know to to run around in a spaceship in scooter so what we do we create caps on co2 and other gas production and we generally we

introduce limits to physical growth of things that are bad for us in the spaceship and we say alright this is it no more cement no more beyond that level and after that we have a big discussion our hands on how to redistribute or distribute the right to use cement between competing uses and that’s a discussion that we have to have us to how is the best way of doing but at the same time we can discuss ways in which we can increase the levels of education of our children in the spaceship so you know I remember the first time I taught at the University of Cambridge I was astounded by the practice of tutorials so one teacher one student that’s it a class of one student one-on-one it’s very expensive and it is very good so the rich wants this kind of growth of educational services for their kids we need that we should have that we should have a lot more green energy we should have a lot more resources human resources being invested in education in caring of the sick of the week of the old we need we need growth of human capacities and human interaction at the same time as we need physical growth to be stemmed to the financial system is prepared to twin turn the decompose mode but are not admitted slightest the financial system is an amplifier of all that is bad and ill in the world this is why we need to put a financial genie in the bottle and you know put the cap on which is not by the way it’s a novel idea because let me remind you that in 1944 when the post-war system of finance and money was designed in the Bretton Woods conference Franklin Franklin Roosevelt made one rule as to who was allowed in that conference and who was not allowed in that conference they were presented from 120 different countries and one rule no banker was allowed in so finance was not represented it financial lenders were not represented in the conference that designed the 1950s and 1960s the golden era of capitalism so the idea that we need to put a financial genie in the bottle is not new I’ve got a point of view about Edward Snowden Julian Assange the NSA and the liberty on the internet who with threat by the the government can you talk about that well I am a friend of Julian Assange’s person a personal friend of Julian Assange doesn’t mean I agree with everything on him but I think of him extremely highly and I think that we are all in his debt and I thought that even before you had ever heard of him before he even created WikiLeaks because I had followed his work and I remember as a as a young person I was terrified when I read 1984 like I think anybody who is 1112 and reads 1984 was terrified at the time because I could see that the growth in technology made Stalin’s job very easy what Stalin’s Hitler’s whoever surveillance was going to become exceptionally straightforward so any system of government that had access to a capacity to turn us into fully transparent beings while it remained opaque was always going to be a massive well it would end all hope of democracy and we don’t have democracy but that would end all hope of democracy so that’s been what the NSA is the NSA can see everything we do and we have no idea what they are doing yeah so when I first discovered Julian Assange’s project which was ingenious it was to take the technology of the enemy of big brother and turn it into a gigantic mirror and turn it onto the face of the big brother so we can see what Big Brother’s do make sure that Big Brother cannot sleep at night fearing that he is transparent to that we can see what he’s doing that’s the whole point of WikiLeaks right and using incredible technology encryption encryption in order to make sure that nobody can bring done something like WikiLeaks that great mirror this is why I was now Ed’s when Snowden is a different kind of beast person in the sense that he’s

closer to my other gate here Dan Ellsberg the Pentagon Papers because these were people who were in bed the system who believed in the system and suddenly had an epiphany unlike Julian Julian was also was an outsider trying to break in Dan Ellsberg and Edie were inside and they were courageous enough to come outside and tell us warn us about what’s going on so as Democrats we should be part of the project of reversing the current status quo the status Y is one way we are all transparent and power is a pig we have to reverse that we should all be opaque and turning power into full transparency you agree to keep on to maintain anonymity on the internet for the common people of course but beyond that we have to have anonymity and property rights over our data and what about the hates who we spied on hey Teresa and the hate we spreading on the Internet’s do we have to take a law against that do we have to educate people do we have to – what I’m a libertarian when it comes to these things yes I’m a Marxist libertarian which like Karl Marx was now I believe that seriously theory when you see the mark with libertarian he was the only genuine libertarian because somebody who loves Liberty understands that capital is destroys it and if you cannot be a libertarian without wanting to go beyond capitalism but at the same time doesn’t mean that if you hate capital is very libertarian you can be silenced so life is complicated but coming – back to your point I don’t believe in prisons and for police as a means of fighting against bigotry and against racism and against haters haters will hate what you need to do is you need to take away that incentive to hate most people who are doing all this are doing all this because they feel disenfranchised and I will go back to what I said to you in the context of the discussion of the lorry driver who voted for travel and who was against Obamacare even though his life would have been saved but we must engage with him there is no substitute for open-ended dialogues you are ready to two degrees estheban yes I would bet stiv the ban on I would debate anyone I think that for this is look when I when I was in my teens one of the most inspiring things I read was dimitrov presentation speech in his trial when he was being tried by the Nazis and condemned to death looking at the nuts in the eye and telling him why he has lost his way and why his position is both illogical and one that he should be ashamed of himself he’s our task it’s not an easy task but there’s no alternative to that he asked her yesterday if she received threats from people when you you’ve been the Minister of Finance of Greece what kind of threat you received well not when I was Minister I received them before I was Minister and after I was Minister what Kane threat to my family threats for the life of my family yes before and the interesting one aspect of it is that the worst came before I was Minister when I was involved in unnerving the practices of Greek bankers and after after that it was more vulgar more vulgar yeah because it come from from the open bunker oh no no no I don’t know who it came from they were anonymous they they used an interesting tactic I remember there were various but I’ll give you the one the one that from a media point of view is more interesting so there was this website that published story about how

there was an intruder in my house a burglar who came in to burgle my my apartment my apartment and how he was deterred by my my security guard which was very interesting because firstly there was no burglar and secondly I don’t have a security guard and I thought what on earth I mean all these people have such a excited imagination and then the the police called me to say that there should be this is something I should be worried about and I said ah come on they’re idiots and he said no no no sir you haven’t read the small print in that report and I read it again and there I saw what was the reason for the police’s concern the website mentioned my address and lo and behold when I went home that night I found an envelope and it was handwritten and said it didn’t happen this time but nobody now everybody has your address and it will happen soon that kind of thing so we’ve had exciting times did you so did you sue the the website no no no I would never give them the satisfaction of suing them you know the bad people hate it when you’re kind to them and I am kind to them just because they they get so upset have you got some advices to fights again the fake news was so cool fake news well keep keep doing the right thing keep keep having discussions that are meaningful always acknowledge your own doubts never present your case as if it is beyond dispute or beyond doubts and lead by example there’s nothing else we can do so now we just arrived in the part of our interview that I’m going to ask the question from internets from our community so the first question is what do you have to say about the Luke’s leaks about Luke’s leaks you know do I look like Lex Lex here any point of view about to protect whistleblowers or stuff like the of course no she’d have legislation that protects whistleblowers we don’t all attempts to reduce introduced as such legislation have been annulled by the deep state interests to maintain Europe as a gigantic tax haven the way in which all these lists and leaks have been annulled and it’s business as usual is a blot on the European landscape this question what do you think about the moodle monetary policy and what about new god monetary theory M&T can you play to you I am my answer to this question because I have frequently faced it is that the MMT economists especially in the United States are all my friends I know them all personally weird close I am MMD friendly even though I do not necessarily agree with everything that they say mmt is and I think the second part of the question shows that our questionnaire understands mmt is very apt in the case of the dollar in the United States because they print world reserve currency so as Donald Trump has proven beyond reasonable doubt deficits don’t count in the United States you can have as high differences as you wish and this is not going to create a run on the dollar or anything like that the basic premise of mm-mm DS correct and that is that most of money is created by private banks not by central banks and there is no reason why we should assume that investment in green technologies in the things that humanity needs must necessarily come out of taxation in Europe for instance as we speak because there was a question about the Euro we have about two trillion euros that is sitting there idly in the financial system doing nothing but ill so as team 25 as European sprain we are proposing an investment program that is based and that’s why I mentioned the European Investment Bank before on a large scale issue of EIB bonds to soak up this liquidity and to use this as the basis

for funding the green new deal that we need in Europe that that is consistent with an empty the question what do you think about picot C’s idea to create a new European assembly with only few countries it’s a terrible idea it’s a terrible idea well firstly look to Tama Piketty has many good ideas and his proposals regarding the eurozone have been shifting I remember I together with Jamie Galbraith my collaborator from the United States we wrote a response to his group’s ideas in 2011 2012 that was a lot more ambitious that plan there was a hint what he had the idea that macron later ahead of federal budget and common unemployment insurance but as all the McCrone plans are going out of the picture tickety’s ambition is also diminishing so his latest idea is to have a nation based nation state based increasing corporate taxation and that money to be spent within the nation state where the man is raised but the same time to have it you’re a hero chamber parliament and understand what is the point if it’s all nation based why do you need the euro chamber and if we’re going to save the eurozone and convert it into move towards a Federation a democratic Federation you know what why do I have fewer countries the moment you start getting rid of countries like Greece Portugal whatever then you cannot contain the Domino effects Italy will come out if it all comes out the whole thing is destroyed I’m not very impressed this question are you in fear with the exit well I’m in fear of having mature civilian government because as I said he is a carbon copy of Mussolini and that is my great fear and might allow me to then weave my fear further into a tapestry of terror of what terrorizes me I think what terrorizes me that mcaren loves salvini and salvini loves McCrone not not as a person they hate each other but they need each other meconium Juncker on the one hand huh what is the excuse for seeking your support if it’s not us it’s salvini so salvini is a gift for crown macrons a Jennifer Europe has died it’s finished he admits it everything he proposed in Sorbonne his complete gone Merkel has killed it and so I have the source of Democrats they spend in Germany and his his his own cabal in the Elysee have taken it back so there’s no European agenda now from a Crone so what is his only argument as to why people the people of France should support him if it’s on him it’s dependent salvini and it’s probably correct as well it’s not untrue but he needs salvini and and a enla pen otherwise his agenda is zero salvini needs McCrone and Younker to be imposing austerity in order to create the anger and the discontent and the deprivation that beasts like salvini so what I’m completely terrorized by is that we live in a Europe where the political narrative is monopolized by these accomplices that because their accomplices they are bouncing off one another they’re each other’s best friends in reality when not anthropologically that must be seen as the enemy of Europe this duet between the forces of the so-called liberal establishment which is neither very well-established not liberal okay and the new fascists this is what why the m25 is claiming the same is pronouncing that these two are a common front for us we are European s believe that in order to save Europe and in order to integrate our people in one pan European Democratic Federation we must fight equally the macarons of the Eucharist on the one hand and the selves in Isabella pens on the other that’s why you made some agreements or some talk with Benoit you know is Benoit who he’s a good friend of mine this is a good thing and also we are running together he’s part of dmg European Spring you need to teach him which is what embodying it it was okay how we operate as a steam across Europe about a year ago we concluded after two years of work our agenda for Europe we call it the European new deal the European green new deal and we struggle for this we we really worked very hard to answer the question what

needs to be done across Europe no no that’s deemed in fact regarding public debt banks private that green investments deprivation poverty and so on and we came up with a long and I believe technically and politically very useful document policy gent and then what we said was and we said that in Napoli in Italy we had a press conference and we invited European movement from every country just on the basis of self selection come and talk to us about this agenda we think this agenda should be put to the European voters in the May 2019 European Parliament election across Europe from Sweden to Portugal from Ireland to Greece for the first time we need one European agenda for the whole of Europe that has never happened before so different movements and different politicians and different parties came to the party came to us to discuss this Benoit moon and our Commerce from generation where one of them they self selected so they came together with good people from Poland the present party the alternative at party in Denmark the Green Party effectively derma came along ACTA from from Spain livery from Portugal we created our own party in Germany called democracy in rabaa and with all that we call the European spring for a year now since then we will be meeting every month to develop our agenda the green new deal for Europe and Benoit Mon Isabelle to Maggie on ballast these are European members of parliament of generation are part of this process we exclude no one who wants to work with us on the basis of what needs to be done we want to move away from the politics of the past where you know a group of friends got together and said ah let’s run together and then after we go together we scratch our heads – and to answer the question so what we propose what is the agenda that we put to voters we want to do it the other way round let’s agree on the agenda let’s agree on what needs to be done with green investment for instance where does the money come from precisely what do we do on Monday morning this is what the left has always left precise programs that can excite the imagination of people not just the usual suspects and anyone who comes to the table to discuss this with us is our commerce so Benoit Ramon is one of them look it was a question from Internet you want to change Europe from inside but the European Parliament’s is only consulted so Evan should get political power you can’t reform it and that is absolutely correct the European Union Parliament the European Parliament’s more or less useless we’re not saying elect us into the European Parliament because we’ll change Europe from within the European Parliament we will try to do to use the European Parliament as a forum to do it do you know what excites us about May 2019 not so much the prospect of being in the European Parliament that excites us too but that’s not the main thing the main thing is that in May we remove four notes whether two but not the main reason why we’re excited it’s because the May elections happen all over Europe for one body the European Parliament and we have the opportunity to do that which is really at the top of our list of priorities to be here in France in Poland in Denmark in Greece in Portugal in Italy at the same time campaigning for the same agenda so it’s the process that matters in Cavafy in terms o matic terms it’s a journey more than the destination that matters for us because what we need to do is we need to give hope to people are there in Leon okay in Marseille in Patras in Leipzig that we that we want to move beyond you know the usual left-wing slog and another Europe is possible we want to show that another Europe is here and we are it we are the movement that has worked together for three years to come up with answers to practical problems besetting people everywhere was a question from internet what about cryptocurrency you believing it to stabilize the system you don’t believe in cryptocurrency no I don’t believe in crypto currencies but I do believe in the algorithms using used in building up cryptocurrencies so when Bitcoin first came up because I have this kind of past of you know a mathematical training and computing training I studied the blockchain algorithm and I was fascinated by it and I remember back in it was two eleven I wrote an article saying this is a fantastic solution to a problem that we have not discovered yet but it’s not an answer to the question of what

keiretsu want but I have to say that even back then in 2012-2013 I started designing a parallel payment system which then I tried to implement when I was in the government and I’m being demonized for that and being even being called the national traitor for having you put forward this proposal and and try to implement it because I believe that in the eurozone our member states should have public payment systems that bypass the banking system and that would create based on our tax systems right plus Swift or bypass all of it all of them all of it it is the design is based on the tax office website so here in France you have a tax file number you go into a website and you transfer money from your private bank account to your tax file number when you have to pay taxes if you don’t wait your accountant does it there is a system there what I think we need to do and I felt that a long time ago is create a reserve account for every tax file number so that you there are two ways in which money can go in there one is if the state owes you money they can put it in there or you can transfer money from your private bank account and put it there why would you do it if the state gives you a discount for paying your taxes from that account and then with a PIN number you can pay your friend or supplier or employee from across these reserve accounts on the tax file system so you could and then that can be extended you can have apps on your phone that allows you to do that suddenly there is a part a payment system but citizens can you taxpayers can use that is outside international globalised find different financial systems so the government can create units there that can be used to repay euros that can be used to repay taxes but that money cannot escape France even though it’s in years and I was planning to have and you see the connection with that this system should be based on a blockchain technology because it guarantees anonymity and decentralization so full transparency huh all citizens will know how much money that is in this model in this system the government cannot create too much of it because everybody would be its panopticon everybody can see through this so I do believe in blockchain algorithms in the algorithms of technology behind cryptocurrencies but I think that the idea of having a currency that is outside the democratic process is a dangerous illusion what’s your question what do you think about universal basic income the m25 is in favor of a universal a universal basic dividend not income what is the difference with a basic income below the universal basic income idea is meant to be financed from taxation we’re against it and we’re against that for political reasons as well as economic reasons the political reason is this take a hard-working proletarian goes to the building site works all day comes home and suddenly he he or she hears on the news that we’re going to do the ubi and his taxes or her taxes are going to be used to pay somebody sitting on the couch watching television everybody every day whether this person is rich or poor Universal this is divisive this person is not going to like it then you cannot drum up support amongst the working class for this but let’s look at our proposal the UBD as opposed to bi universal basic dividend notic our corporations are increasingly making money in return to capital that they have not produced either capital that has been produced by the state like for instance we all know that if you take any smart phone and you open it up all of the technologies in there were developed on the base of some government grant but the government the state and society that financed them don’t get a penny out of the sale of an iphone point number one point number two when you use Google Maps or well most people do when you use search on a owner on a search engine something your friend or your enemy immediately you are contributing to the capital of that company when you put a post on Facebook on a blog on WordPress you are contributing to the capital of that corporation but you’re getting none of the benefits you’re not getting a return on capital that you created okay so increasingly capital is produced

socially and profits are privatized so what we and this is now the conclusion the deme position is any corporation with more than 300 and prays to have a license to function in Europe must issue shares amounting to 10% of its capital and put it into a European equity fund and those the dividends that accumulate in that European equity fund then distribute our disability to everyone on the basis that we society in a way that it’s impossible to discriminate between you and I are producing those returns those profits few questions roots the be be PG good copy being a PG ya be pigeon here I’ve no idea there who’s that the European community can we refuse them over we will see about that and what is your opinion about the same-sex marriage ambivalent let me tell you I I’m a not lefty we grew up against marriage you know we were supposed to you know the may 68 generation we were again we were in free love you know no social contracts between people that want to have sex or will have to have loving relationships yeah of course what do you think I am in a complete idiot of course I’ve smoked to join and I still do occasionally and I inhaled even though I’m not very good at it because whenever whenever I smoke I go to sleep very soon after but that’s another man and I’m not great fun for my friends so to cut a long story short when I hear gay people go crazy but the right to marry I think but we should do away with marriage altogether for heterosexuals as well but then of course in the end I agree with him because it’s a question of equality and it is a question of human rights in the sense that you know I had a friend who died of AIDS and the person that was completely destroyed and who was next to him all his life was prevented by the family of the dead man from being in the funeral on the base that he had no rights that must end here now the first part of my answer is an instinctive may 68 one in the here and now we should all have the right to marry anyone we want and then together let’s think of a society where we don’t need contracts the top deficient profession what we will see about that next which is this am having a child yeah surrogacy oh I can’t stand sagar the surrogacy the idea that the woman hires out her womb in the context of our enterprise culture disgusts me I don’t know what this could mean in terms of policy I don’t I haven’t thought it through but I have to say that look if we live in a world where there are so many orphans out there there are so many kids that you know are dying for some love affection and parenting that using your monetary power to rent out the womb of a woman who is then used as a vessel instead of taking an orphan doesn’t agree with me this is my gut feeling I don’t have a policy on it we arrived at the end of one tell you the last question okay the first one is give you some give give to us some book some advice to choose books which is your favorite books on what oh my goodness there is an impossible question yeah give us three yeah and the next you’ll ask me for my favorite three pieces of music and then the three three movies I’ll die I mean I have no idea three okay value the most powerful book that you ever hate the most I’m complete I will give you free but they will be called green at random if you ask me five minutes later give you know another three so let me be open

about this I think that okay three right one is I think it must be Sophocles plays especially the that the trilogy around Oedipus Antigone and so on that that’s crucial to me in terms of my understanding of resistance to Authority and also to the power of prophecy which is so important in fashioning the world we live in a second book which i think is essential to my upbringing is the preface to the introduction to the critique of political economy by Karl Marx okay that particular little ten pager it’s remarkable impact on my life and let’s add Crime and Punishment by Dostoyevsky for a bit of bleakness and darkness so the last question is not a question is given advice to the young generation something like a bottle in the sea sounds like a bottle induce a messages a message in the boat subvert the dominant paradigm that’s it that’s it never take anything that is presented to you as authoritative as authoritative subvert it Jennifer Keyes thank you thank you cut