New European landscape for renewable energy incentives | Online debate

so I assume that we are now online and I’m very happy to introduce a distinguished group of experts here in this online debate on renewable energy and renewable energy policy and the way forward and we are all witnessing a very fascinating period in terms of renewable energy on a global level they are dominating the investments in terms of the power sector and Europe as a pioneer has created the field for this global success since a number of decades but also in Europe the landscape is changing and this is our topic for today we will discuss the new European landscape for renewable energy incentives so policies support schemes and market integration and I’m very happy to introduce as I said a very distinguished number of experts here starting with dirty for key who is since 2010 partner with PPA BBH law firm and before she was also partner of the law firm at Cuba and I think I don’t have to say very much about the other cheese own to everybody in the field and results in the field of energy and particularly renewable energy also Jerome the patch whose manager for European electricity markets and independent consultant for effort since 2012 and a in-depth expert for the energy sector and particular the energy markets and with respect to renewable energies that Allegra sivaji cheese regulatory a first specialist and for responsible for environment and low-carbon policies at NL and furthermore Jesus member of the renewable energy working group at your electric in particular and for example at the global sustainable energy electricity partnership and last but not least it’s my particular pleasure to welcome Alfonzo on pants on is a really long term energy expert and energy manager and has experience of about 35 years and he has pulled up the desert egg and that’s initiative and is currently working still in the MENA region and it’s driving renewable energy project forward on behalf of our w/e and still bri and has been president of effort for quite some time and its honorary honorary president of effort so what is our main question today at this point of time I think we are in a moment where we have a successful renewable energy directive for 2020 it works we are on track with reaching the MSA targets for the great majority of member states we are really on track for the national targets we have a target of twenty percent and final energy which means about thirty-five percent and renewable electricity so by the year 2020 we’ll have roughly or more than one-third of electricity from renewables besides that ten percent renewables and transport we have agreed in Europe on a 2030 target of twenty-seven percent which is binding at the European level it is not binding at member state level as the 2020 target and but it gives investment security also for the decade after 2020 and we have seen considerable breakthroughs in terms of cost reduction of course in particular for photovoltaics but also for other technologies like wind energy costs have come down and we are currently in a situation where we are competitive for free renewable energies in terms of levelized cost of electricity and the question is how do we evolve and reform market design and renewable support schemes in order to have renewables or the competitive in the long term in the electricity market and to increase the market value of renewables in the electricity market such that support can decrease further and further and the current situation of market design market integration and further development of support schemes is somehow also influenced or strongly influenced by the stated guidelines for

renewable for in my environment which concerns also renewable energies where in particular for requirements are part of the state guidelines first of all member states should reform their support schemes from feed-in tariffs or from fixed payments to premium payments where the electricity market price is an important element of the revenue stream secondly the support level should no longer be determined at Melissa tively but based on auctions and tenders thirdly the Commission is asking for in the long term for technology neutrality and last but not least a big topic which we witness at the moment is opening of national support schemes so strong cooperation between European member states so both in terms of technology energy markets economy but also support schemes and policies we are in a very fascinating period and the witness many reforms and changes and therefore I am really looking forward for a statement of our distinguished panelists and before I start with dirty for key i would like to motivate everybody in the audience listening to us in the internet to send us comments remarks questions which will of course take up and after the introduction of the panelists we will have the opportunity to react to your comments and to address questions too each of the distinguished panelists and now I would like to start with Dolph okay and I’m looking forward for your particular viewpoint dirty can you hear us anybody and I’m very pleased to be able to and was invite yet can we meet hello yeah hello good I maybe she put me hello i thankee thanks to the floor in school and thanks for the for the introduction the overview by Mario I a little bit from the point of view of somebody 90 91 in brussels on the issues of energy systems and i have to say first of all when we still have the current renewable energy directive 2009 28 as our as our guideline and it has to be observed still and despite the hope and i think it was correct that many member states will reach their target there is also still a lot to be done and we do have we do have a lot of undercurrents on the member state level with changes in the support mechanism which disincentivize immediately the quest for putting projects in that respective country so we all know the situation in Spain we know agrees we know bulgaria czech republic and so forth so there is a big insecurity in the market by investors which can be seen at the level of numbers of cases before international courts of arbitration under the energy charter treaty and it can be seen also in an interesting path for reaction from the european commission in view of these specific cases so that’s legally very very interesting but maybe i am coming back so i think one of the learning experiences from the last decade is that the most important thing we need in order to have policies and incentives is to have stable targets in European level and in the member state level and as we all know so far we do have the binding targets on the member state level and as Mario said then has gone away in my point of view what we now have is a certain limbo with this fairly unimpressive new target where at least countries like Germany and Denmark you can hear echo from the government saying this is business as usual explanation so if we do just a little bit more nobody did need to do another effort and that will have a mediate effect on the on the regulatory field and other wish to promote renewable energy yet I see also and I come back to that now is that despite the directive which so far leaves the

authority over the support mechanism into the respective member state we face a situation where by a cool flap or should I say the Commission a DD competition came up with the state a guidelines which are not a law or legislation by itself but in effect is amputating the discretion of member states so we can argue when is a good time to change and I come back in a minute on the regional cooperation quest and all that good stuff but it remains at the moment effect that soft law mechanism has as I said amputated the directive and that is the thing where I am as a lawyer quite some preoccupied with and I don’t think that was the right way to go on we do have cooperation mechanisms in the in the directive they were not used many reasons we can discuss them some they should be used better especially the the regional cooperation and when I now see what will happen in the next year’s it will probably be that those countries who are fired once in having a lot of renewables in their system and like Germany are looking for a complete renewable based system by 2050 in electricity we we now face a situation of different speeds and different needs we have member states now who are much more in need with the surrounding countries and on larger regions to integrate and to change an energy system and I think the Commission did a very good work in coming up with this consultation on energy market design we can go into into that later in detail detail but one out coming from the state egg guidelines which I think at least needs of careful analysis is now that the auctioning models are introduced and and it needs to be seen if they are really the more efficient modules if they are really helping to bring prices faster down then well designed to fit in mechanisms and the third is also do they really respond to the to this new world of a small and big actors together whereas the biggest actors in many countries the former the incumbent industry is it was a bit low on the uptake to to enter this segment of renewables so I think we have a very mixed back and I fear a little bit that since the European Commission had to head to kowtow a little bit in no longer being able to to press for binding targets up to 20 30 that she also lost a little bit of of convincing power for the next years to come in the situation where we do not have an overwhelming positive European attitude in some member states so maybe what I would also discuss maybe later is how Member States react to the this to this friend situation that you do have an overcapacity still in most of our electricity markets in Europe where you have an with thanks to a priority access on this page where you have a prime situation for renewables to enter first but we have too much load let’s say in the system and too little willingness to say goodbye to two old capacity and and that is a further very very difficult element the grid operators and everybody has to cope with and as a last remark epatha tea market and as a way to to fuel prices and to enhance security of the system are in my view in most of the applications so far rest q8 in disguise and so have to be looked at and the Commission desert also some of them do not respect the new world of demand side management as a mean for example to secure to supply maybe this was maybe a bit fast but that would be my first look this wasn’t too fast I think it was just perfect it gave us a very clear position and also pointed at challenges and problems clear position with respect to the stated guidelines to the Commission proposal on

market design and also to some critical situation in individual member states that I would directly hand the microphone and the floor to Jerome lippisch who will give us probably a bit different position perhaps from the perspective of asset or of course your personal position of North thank you Mario and good good afternoon everyone ok i think when we looking at the state renewables and their financing right now one thing that needs to be mentioned first is the role of DTS in all that so the emissions trading scheme according to the european federation of energy traders should really be at the center of the decarbonisation efforts in europe so we’re seeing progress there with the NSR but they still evolve reform to be done and notably a a reflection to be launched on overlapping policy so how the policy on renewable effects DTS and vice versa so that’s something that still needs to be tackled seriously by the Commission and stakeholders in general after Devlin we’re looking more closely at renewable supports in general I think a Fed generally welcome the fact that there’s currently gonna be a unified target for Europe we perceived that is the right way to go it’s not a time anymore when we think about energy markets individually per member states but like we have reached a level of europeanization that needs also to be looked at on the retina both side as far as the financing is concerned I think directly mentions the daj the state of the state guidelines the corporation mechanism what what we see is that the cooperation mechanism may have been a good idea initially but so far only one corporation mechanism exists between Norway and Sweden and despite repeated claims by the member states that they want to use them and they’re really happy with that we don’t see any progress so also the second possible cooperation mechanism which was undeserved between the UK and I events I didn’t go through so and still hasn’t gone through so far so we’re a bit disappointed in that so we think it’s time that member states are not nestle force but really incentivized to cooperate really so if this needs to go through european union initiatives and Commission initiatives we we applaud that within the EAG so the stated guideline is not something that is out of the competence of the Union as far as renewables indeed maybe somehow a member state competence but it has an impact on energy market so that should be taken into account and it’s reasonable for the Commission to intervene to make sure that that renewable support is in line with the general competition competition to a European level and the direction they want to go to for the energy markets what we see is that although we would have favoured from the outset a european-wide certificate system this is clearly not the direction that member states are going towards neither is the Commission’s so we see the possibility I mean we see him like more and more like market-based Android systems emerging in member states in the UK in Germany for examples we we see benefits in it also because it usually goes hand in hand with balancing responsibility for renewable energy producers so according to a like Roma trading standpoint this is something that is quite valuable this also preserves the financial viability of renewable energy production that is currently not in the market so to say what we would like to see a

is in general that this tender procedures are harmonized from lumber say to member states so that also renewable energy generation that is located outside of specific members it can participate in a tender in the specific member state and also so that going forwards and looking at brother 2025 2030 the possibility for an EU tender system is there for Europe so we see that as a positive step the exact specification of the type of tender but we’re looking at a premium at a two-way CFD whether we’re rewarding capacity or energy in renewables that is still to be decided but I think it’s a good time to stop and get rid of the initial feed-in tariff system that was implemented in many member states which had the advantage of helping renewables a lot but also had damaging consequences on the energy market so I think for many renewables technology we cannot talk about Mason’s technologies anymore so we’ll need to look for going on that and I’ll stop there and happy to discuss further okay I thanks a lot to aroma thank you excellently used also your five minutes and I think I would directly like to pass to a llegar sivaji for a point of view from an or two to give us an else position on the current and future framework for renewables yes thank you very much Mario and good afternoon to everyone I think that the most important issue is was daughter was saying about the insert annuity for the operators in in the market we have decarbonisation goal and we have as you already mentioned European target to be achieved by 2030 for renewable and that means that we need renewable investment and this is the the most important question how the market can ensure the development of those renewable sources we well known that the market today is currently based on centralized generation and power plants which have a high variable cost however the electricity system is moving toward a more decentralized structure with also intermittent resources and of course with low variable costs such as solar wind power plant so it means that we have to think about a new market design and I think this was the outcome that was expected from the consultation from the European Commission and this new market design should ensure on one hand that operator ISM reduced their risks in investing but in the other hand avoid market distortions that we already seen in the last years with the last framework the 2020 framework so we believe that we need a new market design that should be based on three pillars the first bidders is the market should be based on a long term for arsenal’s investors need to have a long-term procedure in order to reduce their their financing costs and to edge their price risk linked the spirit to this pillar the second pillar is the competitive schemes we already mentioned that in the stated guidelines we are moving towards more competitive mechanisms such as tendering that are able to minimize the distortions in the market and we have already some experiences that show these results we believe that competitive scheme should be applied to renewable in order on one hand to reduce the risk for operator for example for non programmable resources a CFD two ways CFD could be introduced such the one introduced by the UK which seems to be a successful solution and on the other hand we have programmable sources that can have higher and higher distortions in the market in terms of negative prices which could receive investment

aid in order to reduce this distortion the third pillar which is of course very important is the integration of renewable sources in the market actually we need a market that fits for rest and this means that rules and technologies needs to evolve in order to let renewable to participate in to the market and of course we will need a smooth transition in order to achieve a level playing field with with other resources so based on these three pillars we believe that we can create a well-functioning market design however as someone mentioned before we have a 2030 target and it’s only at European level so we don’t have the same framework that we had in 2020 or in the twenty20 framework actually so it means that we have to ensure the achievement of this target and it it’s not important the level I mean it’s not important the 27 or the 30 the important thing is how we reach this target and I believe that there could be a gap versus that target even if we have the ETS as Jerome mentioned even if we have market forces and even as even if we have national measures so therefore i think that european commission should today face this challenge and try to introduce some measures in order to feel this possible gap and this could be done by competitive tenders that could be made at regional level and this would ensure an optimal allocation of resources because there will be a probably a selection of project in the most suitable locations due to the fact that the selection will be based on the availability of resources on the leaner permitting procedure on the under London on the efficient network development so it means that there will be more efficient allocation and this would also help member states to cooperate and this is what the European Commission has in mind so the cooperation will be will be increased and we believe therefore that investment now should be should follow not the economic resources but the natural resources availability in order to reach more European European approach okay thank you very much alaga what said you’d say your statement that was your statement what thank you very much I think it’s very comprehensive and I would like to thank you for really stressing the point that we need the right balance between long-term investment security and long-term power purchase agreements and on the other hand short-term market integration and I think it’s a good challenge how to integrate both and you also mentioned the compatibility between ETS and renewals targets as Jerome bit and just would like to point out that which is often forgetting forgotten that in the twenty20 package but also in the 2030 package we have an integrated climate and energy package where the renewable targets we’re already part of the overall package and therefore as long as we don’t overshoot the renewable targets which is not the case at the moment all of that could be anticipated by investors and market actors and therefore I’m not so convinced i don’t immediately agree that renewables automatically meaner distortion for the ETA ets as long as everything’s on track which is to my understanding currently the case but i guess puffins on will have a very distinct opinion about this as well and as our senior participant and panelist yes the last word and i’m looking forward for that thank you very much mario you’re the lining the seniority which can also be translated as we all the diners are that also needs to be involved or want to be involved in the discussion well what we see is of course a lot of the complexity this is not a simple circular you could say well we have one solution for europe and that’s it and now we are going to implement this is a struggle that we are working on for many years it’s also

don’t expect for me today now one answer like this is what i see is the solution for europe we will never reach that either it is there europe is not not one country is not one unit no one knows exactly what Europe is the dirt tries very hard to to to coordinate to harmonize to put things together and there we also see the dilemmas of Europe on the one hand a discard scale of Europe the issue will be we have target for renewables we have targets for emissions with targets for energy efficiency and so on and then we try to get all the member states in other countries to behind this target and make it work we share the loads and so on that is never wrong approach is not never one clear creek syrup that would mean to two countries and its country as you see here is also reflected in in the speakers before me I have their own ideas how this go rocky you can say there are two schools one school it started with the from promoter of the Germans it is to to do to support to incentivize or to push for renewables and to bury it into a market environment and just like that like feet in a very strong message and it’s very successful by the way it’s not a bad mattress methods and there is another school you here is very much in your home the parts they come from a market size and they the markets people see these renewable spheres is a strange animal what is it it is something that needs help I actually it is a normal power its electricity so it should be from electricity point of view a normal element of the market but it has not yet been marked the value or at least the cost level of renewables is in no not yet in relation to fair relation with the value in the market that’s a problem so you need help and it supports there is there it starts well the inverter already did this work of distortion if you don’t do this clever and all that and of course it distorts a market because you appear with the play of supply and demand because there are strange elements and no one knows why and how and who’s paying for this and why are they doing is make a sense and true I want to go back to a few a singular out I think we all agree that is first of all you need I think we all agree that renewables is good tool to help this and to bring it into the market to integrate it in the market finally this should become a normal market elements without any seeds consented without any support if we are not yet there but that should be the target has to be the real target yet intermediate target like 2020 2030 where you have some numbers like it presents percentages that we should keep in mind always the real target real objective to bring this to an integrated in a market and that means from two sides on the wrong hands renewables suit becomes as quickly as they can and some renewals already are a normal supply element in the market and on the other hand the non-renewable should not in that sense not be unfairly treated so subsidy subventions who support or whatever goodies that the non-renewable have should also be taken into account so those for both sides work at it work as quickly again to toward a competitive situation competitiveness but we always would wish I think is that renewables become competitive in a market and I think all of you talked about market design there I have different opinion and Mariano’s this I do not believe that market design is we have all the elements in the model in Europe Europe is very well developed there are very many instruments to make this good market to bring supply and demand on the intermediate level inter day next day next week next month next year and long-term through market elements imbalance as renewables could play in that there is no reason to see whether it should be elements with the fact that we talked about mark design has to do with this in transit this this lack of trust or lack of stability in the in the changes that we see in the market if you can get two more trust more stability and more understanding of the market elements markets in soon as I think we have everything in place in

Europe today it’s only like a little bit of help maybe for the video is not too much and then to break into the market to do to start on analyzing better like where are the real bottlenecks in the integration of renewables then one element I also Mario we have talked a lot in the past as in this desert act about the question how can you ensure that in Europe at European level you get to a lower so lowest-cost should actually be at from European point of view the objective of course that is conflicting as a dilemma I understand very well of it national interests so there are maybe countries it’s a well it’s not nice if all the power plants are built in other country with better conditions because then there are no renewal was built in our country then of course I understand this but I main stream the main sinking at European level at the Member States should be Europe we all want here to be competitive member states have a good steak in this so you should work more in the direction of how can we achieve lowest-cost stability security of supply at environmentally good well positioned renewables that is the real point and as I’m strong believer of the strengths of green certificates difficult beyond borders actually if we talk about the renewed about renewables or about energy we should not talk in terms of national borders national borders nothing to do with energy renewable energy assets this VR is one market more or less at least could say clusters of market to start with it not at the level of Luxembourg or netherlands or albania that all respect they are too small we should not talk anymore in the first place about national borders try who work across borders I think personality the attempts of cooperation mechanisms was very nice at the very well well intention but it isn’t really not a way to integrate something in the market inc a green trading green certificates rating mechanism or a market would be the rushing for the production of certificates for agreeing the green value and then bring it to the customers on aspect that I didn’t hear from any of you is how can we bring the insights into this market so that customers see the value of renewables that you pay something for green power or or they should get an extra hour penalty for the non green power so the three power becomes more attractive so that the customers are asking are trying buying this district our elements this is a porous and if you talk about Europe Europe has also neighbors and very well where because i’m now sitting in dubai so in orion Middle East Africa they have a tremendous sources of the very cheap energy and Dubai you can produce a photovoltaic energy during the day for five cents per kilowatt hour and on the longer term yes you should connect this or at least be cute awards that in this area here still fossil fuel power stations are being built which is the case today if we could connect the progress is a wish to use visual energy is between Europe and this area here so why should we pay the highest price for renewables in some places in Europe and at the same time there are being coal plants by a built-in in countries in North Africa and in the Middle East that’s maybe not that the best way to move ahead altogether so that’s about my input to the discussion today thank you okay thank you very much Paul I think you gave a very clear position and saying that we had tried some success in renewable support in Europe but now time is ready for more market integration and more European markets also for the green value in terms of green certificates and yeah generally that renewable should become competitive but from an economic point of view I think as long as we do have externalities which i think is agree we have also justification for some

support and as long as policymakers agree that we should have individual targets which is the case until 2030 I think that is an agreement we can probably to some extent all heaven also Jerome said that he could see the way forward in terms of European auctions for renewables which also somehow agrees on the potential need for support in the future I for my point of view a key element is how do we combine this type of market integration on the one hand and so Anna then security and guarantee like long-term revenue guarantees for the investment which reduces cost of capital and market integration on the other hand and I think yeah the Commissioner has good made some good proposals with the communication on the market design but maybe coming back to the question regarding the state aid guidelines we I think we all addressed and the issue of opening up slowly opening national support schemes and tick tick freshness how how quick that should be done if we open very quickly then we could have this situation or renewables are in salt and in one country at the best locations and then of course we we run into the question whether to have hot spots which reduce acceptance but also reduce market value in this individual countries word which would attract most of these investments and so maybe my question back to you I don’t know who wants to start is to see like what would your perspective your perspective on the speed in which we open national support schemes and then I will also address some of the questions coming from the floor and which were very specific in terms of the 20 20 targets and also 20 30 um maybe you wanna do okay well it doesn’t maybe a trigger very briefly are these some yep on the support mechanisms development I think when you have comparable situations in two countries are you will see well you may well think about ting things together that’s that’s the thing only the reality is is quite differently even in the only alluded joint support mechanism system between serve from Sweden to Norway there’s a lot of the devil in the detail and it’s not really true the benefit of flows in this car so I via via royal sister Paula to every on it we not differences even in countries who have similar support unless and I think an example I take the the level of the part the part of grid fee on your bill and the at the composition of the grid fees on the deers all ever for example vs the the rear power production is to the best in some countries really am a bit blurred 22 tried NT file friend ample to neck management in in situations of stress on the grid and the system I could again quote Germany and Austria of a complete different approach and and you could continue with the list you could you could think about before we do a joint support mechanism shouldn’t be rather thing in larger regions and a better interconnection between them a better role of the respective could we have a regional TSO which is stretching into both countries list of of things we we have to consider first and then maybe in the end it’s not even that important to have a joint mechanism because you will come up with with with Simeon maybe

similar constructions and I see a trend that you will have for big projects and for offshore that is there’s probably a place for auctioning but on the other hand in countries like Germany the beauty was always in the success was always by by an enormous number of small and independent producers and cooperatives and at the moment especially in Germany is quite up in the air if with an extended auctioning for example into wind they will maintain the possibility under the stated guidelines for 7.7 megawatt for example to be kept out of auctioning system in order to allow what the Commission wants to have more say for the prosumer and for the local level so I I wouldn’t for me it’s not a myth to have a joint system but before that there’s a lot of hard work to be done ok thanks a lot daughter I don’t know John if you want to say something otherwise I would just give the floor back to Paul because this combines very good with one question from the audience where the question is to pause and so on do you think that guarantees of origin and possible extension to the Geo on the electricity generated from all energy sources could bring more awareness to the customers about the value of renewables as you mentioned that awareness is missing so the question whether the big European green certificate scheme is the awareness facilitator for the renewables long-term yeah i think so i think is very important for it it’s actually a humorous citizens I did the whole debate I never hear anything about the citizens the citizens in Europe are not really involved in all this day here’s something about green energy that I don’t know what it is i think is some cases like in Germany they can buy echo power or drink power of it is very obscure is not so very clear out of this that’s that’s a pity because the we should give the the citizens in Europe the possibility to buy green power in Europe and if the green power i differentiate between the physical power because the physical powers physical power makes no difference where it is being produced it is about the fact that somewhere is the european system there is some installation that produces screen at least the Greens difficult screen power so that can be translated into products like green power products whatever may be from specific installations were offshore or whatever it gives the customer the chores like what kind of power do you like to buy of course then we’ve also ethics if you do this like this the green power is not competitive it involved a customer is not prepared to pay a princess two times the price of kilowatt hour of course at that is the other subject that Mario mentioned not so explicitly an or indirectly the fact that there are a lot of course not internalized so if you would be able to assist the extra cost for green to the the coastal crisis for the non green that are not internalized total prices you could make to the customer dream products competitive okay if you will do this we have had seen digit in some countries like in Netherlands or already 15 years ago you see that the customers of course then would select green power it’s about the same price well I would and I did please for this for many years but I know that the Europe is very controversial and it’s not know well understood even as root certificate as you could then it stepwise also make sure that the best or the cheapest sources of energy green energy would be would be tapped and not that for instance not known renewables or the normally you walk and she will be built in the wrong places like the coal plants in areas where fantastic sunshine or a major wins okay okay thanks a lot Paul I have to mention some skepticism with the fact that we can have like wind power only by voluntary willingness to pay and that that would be sufficient I think we have quite ambitious 2020 targets and also the gross expansions we

need for the 2030 target are quite ambitious and I’m the questions what happens is the voluntary willingness to pay is just not enough and of course to be honest when one has to say that in Netherlands 15 years ago the opening of the green certificate scheme attracted mainly appreciated appreciated large hydropower from Scandinavian countries which was of course at very low cost but what we really need for long-term emission reduction targets is a new investments in and then the company the company I work for only producer in the Netherlands in those days were political but of course there is very important if you start with such a system then you do not give freebies to existing system situation selected that should start with only new installations otherwise good upward then you get you mentioned what happened in the Netherlands that it support the problem is countries that come up with innovative ideas that do not fit into the total European markets of course run into these crazy things that that is clear so if you talk about this my idea that doesn’t mean that we are only or I am not so unrealistic that I think that only wind power and solar can bring in a couple of year all the the power for the the power supplier for the customers in Europe of course not this will goes in steps and that goes through price mechanisms right there if there is no green anymore and not not available then of course this cost increases the price increase supply and demand okay okay thanks I don’t know I think Jerome dropped out I was wanted to give the floor to him for the next issue but then maybe I continue with one other question from the audience it was asked what happens if member states will not reach their 20 20 targets so what what are the tools of the Commission if individual countries do not comply with the targets established I think this is a clear question to the lawyer yes the commission that is a good question actually because we had that before when we had the electricity directive for renewable t2000 177 directive where we found where the Commission found out that member states were a bit slow in fulfilling the indicative target at that time and when we discussed this directive the Commission was very strong during the destroyed during the legislative procedure to say we go as soon as we see that the interim directories trajectories are missed we will go immediately into into infringement procedure and what does that mean that is very temple in a way first there is a negotiation between the members day to do better I to adjust their national program and so forth and when the members that does not come out of the Commission the Commission can go for to the European Court and start the legal infringement before the court in the same time after some reforms the Commission can already asked for some fines and they they very briefly there is like a scoreboard in relation to the GDP capacity of the given country in infringement and if the court would would say that the day’s infringement and then the court would say that the permission in a way picked the right fine Ernest is can give this fines which often daily fines and until the situation is healed so that can be a sharp weapon only there two caveats run is it is still extremely long I think there was statistics for bit between four and seven years so we if the commission would start and Frenchmen in 2019 we almost at the end of the 2030 feet before before there would be something biting and the other thing is i can again like in the old days that those intervention procedures would be forgotten and would not be even started okay thanks a lot better and I would just like to continue with one other question I think I would like to address it to Jerome and Allegra on now the big topic combining it to the big topic of market design where the bike design talks are a trick trap by utilities to get capacity payments for legacy plants like colon nuclear and what should be

done in the fourth directive to avoid such traps in order to have yeah I play level playing field for renewables with conventional glance I don’t think it’s a it’s a trick to get capacity pavements I mean II fed in general has never taken a position for capacity payments we think it would be wrong to argue for the integration of renewables in the market and at the same time argue for capacity payment for like also fueled generation or nuclear power generation so this is definitely not the point I think when when we’re thinking market market design this is as much to and allow renewables to play in in the market as if right now as to as to force also mark the market to really absorb those volumes when I when I heard before that nothing needs to be done I don’t think that’s true i think i think there’s still plenty of work to do on the market design for the intraday market for the balancing markets for the integration of those that’s also something that will allow better integration of renewables and also of the men’s side well one point maybe on uncustomary talked about it before i think a indeed the green certificate idea i think ultimately will be the right one will help and allocate costs in the best way and and really push customers to get involved in the meantime we also need to be pragmatic so so that’s why I i think really those market-based tenders are a good way to go for Europe and ideally at EU level the risk right now that we’re perceiving it started in countries like Germany were more than fifty percent of your bill is energy costs is the North energy costs I mean it’s great hard taxes and levies more and more people will get off the grid so that’s no problem once everybody’s not the great but in the meantime this will really increase increase of socialized costs for the ones who remain on the great Thanks maybe we’re last question to a llegar yeah or just ending it over and maybe combining it with the question us the big investor your you should have the final voice and saying what you really need final at the end of the day to make the investment happen that we all need to reach our target actually has Jerome was saying is not a matter of renewable is also a matter of conventional generation I think that will need long-term signals also because we have to disinvest power plants so what what we think is that the the best way to achieve one hand the renewable target and on the other hand to disinvest also and to invest in conventional generation and the long-term price seniors are the best way and we believe that for example in Italy we have real ability options which are mechanisms that able the participant the power plant to securitize their revenues through induction mechanisms so we believe that the combination of those instruments could be the right solution to achieve the decorative decarbonisation target we have to have in mind that to achieve those goals as not only to invest in renewable sources without thinking about the costs for consumers the cost for the system and the way these investments are incentivized we are we have to think also about which will pay for this cost and we have to have in mind also how renewable sources can be better allocated in Europe so having in mind European approach okay okay thank you very much oh my god I think we are more or less at the end of the time

if there’s one lesson learned from this debate then it is that one hours definitely too short if that should be repeated we need really more time because it’s such a complex topic puffin son has indicated that that we really talk about high complexity from my point of view I would see the conclusion that we need to combine investment certainty flexibility and European thinking in terms of the further development and we are now just starting the process of negotiating and discussing the the policy framework for the year 2030 and I think it will continue quite intensely also in connection with the market design framework and the Commission communication and legislation and therefore I would like to thank you all i would thank the participants for the question and i would like to apologize that of course we couldn’t address all of the questions but i think there will be the opportunity to come back and somehow discuss of finish this discussion at another occasion thank you very much and if there is anything you really would like to add this is your chance otherwise I think we would close this debate yes thank you okay thank you thank you very much