LAWS11046_2 Law and the Environment

this is zoom session for weeks one and two for environmental policy and introduction to the legal system for laws one 1046 warned the environment presented by John Melbourne as a note online sessions recorded for educational purposes recording of zoom may be uploaded an imperial YouTube and Moodle if you have any concerns about room being recorded please turn off your video camera or audio or both during the session your participation will signify your consent to the recording and publication for educational purposes sorry about that now for those of you who have had an opportunity to look at the introductory video that I posted yesterday you’ll know something briefly about me and the process that I came to follow as you would have seen in that commentary last night and also in various commentaries that I’ve made the way I intend to run this program this year is perhaps a little different to what previous students have experienced there is a great deal of reference material available to you I’m going to rely very heavily a corner and follow the text which is by gerrybates environmental law in Australia this is the eighth edition for those of you who have it and see how easy and an informative videos are easy to read and informative please and for those of you who don’t you’ll see how thick it is a lot of reading to do it um so that’s why I’m choosing to follow the text pretty closely in Moodle you would have seen the outline of headings and this week’s are pretty easy week it’s just introduction to the legal system and environmental policy and really I’m just going to follow through on yep the one of the plants book I take it that you all have Bates by now or at least you’ve altered it thank you I’m a little bit about myself by way of background I am a lawyer I’m in private practice I was admitted in 1984 I hid my studies at the University of Queensland in the mid to late 70 and then through the early 80s I completed my undergraduate there at the University of Queensland with honors I did my articles of clerkship with a firm that it was then known as Canon and Peterson went on to become deacons and now it’s known as Norton Rose Fulbright my practice is primarily in litigation but i do have essentially three paid jobs this is my third job which is as a course coordinator lecturer if you like for quick and central queensland university my second job is I’m a member of the Queensland civil administrative tribunal and in that regard we hear cases hundred conferences conciliation conferences etc and just it’s not assessable but if you’re interested I’ve posted a link to a couple of mine published decisions which sham came out late last year for qk I am I was originally a mentor tutor for the University and I was privileged to be given this opportunity to have an ongoing role as a course coordinator now if I just stop there i’m getting a little bit of feedback is ending everyone hearing me clearly enough let me know if there’s a problem or i’ll continue thank you apart from that I did co establish with magistrate gut rich as he is now the legal service in Harvey Bay which is where I’m based on I’m nationally accredited as a mediator and I was chair of the College Council little fraser coast inland college during its early years and 1990s and I’ve been reinvite it back onto the board or council this year so lots to do um and that’s my background as you would have seen I’m very keen on communicating via email and i invite you to send me emails throughout I’m very keen also to communicate through the Moodle site lots of questions and answers sometimes if you raise a question in the general discussion I won’t jump in too quickly with my response because I’m very keen for you to start communicating with each other and having progressed this far through the course I’m sure that you’re all used to doing that I would be very happy to see you establish study groups and I don’t know where you’re transmitting from but it may be that through Moodle in the general discussion area I can encourage you to start talking to each other maybe just posting where you are located geographically maybe something of your interests and maybe you can start creating some study groups to

assist you through this course now as I understand it you are not law students per se and you’re studying this subject as part of an overall degree presumably in accounting or business or or something else so that being the case I will try to stop our explain legal concepts explain the way it works and certainly invite questions now that means any time through these sessions if you’d like to raise a question please do so alternatively drop down the question and maybe raise it through Moodle or email at a later time but I just want to talk firstly about the study of law only briefly as if you were a law student now there is this might be difficult for those of you that are scientists it’s fairly difficult to say that this is the law there is no such thing as the law the practice of law the way in which the law is written and operates it’s quite fluid and in some ways it’s cyclical what I mean by that is this there are and you be aware in law the separation of powers between the Parliament which makes the laws the executive which administered as administers the laws and execute the laws and finally the judiciary which interprets the laws and in many ways those three working in cycles and their work in conjunction with each other and you’ll see that very often in your study of environmental law in Australia but generally speaking we start with Parliament Parliament makes the laws it creates the laws and having done that and make made a statute then the parties which are involved in a legal dispute come to you know they don’t always agree on the interpretation lawyers disagree with the interpretation and disputes then proceed to court the court then interprets the laws and even then judges will disagree you’ll have decisions of courts which are then appealed and in the appeal court’s they might be split decisions so it’s very hard for anyone categorically to say this is the law in any given circumstance once the decision is made by the Parliament the community and Parliament then react which then brings us back to the start of the cycle where Parliament then creates new laws which is where i started with Parliament makes the laws we we have policy disputes we have disagreements we have an election and then we have a new Parliament which repeals the law and we have new laws and we start the cycle again that’s particularly relevant in environmental law because it’s such an emotive and in a way volatile subject that we are used to now seeing Parliament make laws those laws be the subject of disputes and dealt with through the court system so law is constantly changing and it’s probably better if I describe the practice of law as the practice of studying the legal process so it’s a bit different to scientific type regime or an accounting regime that you might have been otherwise used to in your studies I guess what I’m really saying in essence he is and treat this as an advantage rather than a disadvantage there is not necessarily a right or wrong answer so in writing an answer from law question it’s really a question of whether you’ve identified the correct issues whether you’ve identified the correct law and then whether you’ve made a logical argument in relation to those about the legal principles that in important the end result you know whether a person is guilty not guilty or whether the company is liable not liable etc isn’t as important as the process that you’ve used to describe how you got there so I hope you can understand that it’s not a case of necessarily having all the answers or all the marks allocated because you’ve got the right answer now I can it follows from that that you probably need to be careful of a simplistic answer paralegals who I have a great deal of respect for do however sometimes think in terms of black and white terms this is the answer it thanks whereas sometimes the more senior the lawyer the more experienced the lawyer the more likely the lawyer is to talk in terms of alternatives or or different scenarios for different circumstances um so there is a ding the difference between also black letter law and equity and you’ll hear about these

principles sometimes as we progress hi Lori is that what if I could just ask you to pop your microphone on there or sorry to put your microphone off we’re just getting a bit of background noise coming through is that a right can you try and find that button to youth the microphone thanks Lori having said that please come in and ask any questions at any time um okay John I’m going to ask a question and it relates to a little bit earlier um mr. holder’s when a statute that is file when I I guess and this is going to be really basic so so an act is created and then you have a statute is a statute just a better explanation of what’s a more detailed explanation of what’s in an act ah good question no wind lawyers talk about an act which is with a capital A and a statute we’re talking about the same thing so for example if we talk about the sustainable planning act that is a statute it’s also an act of parliament so it’s the same it’s different ways of describing the same thing does that answer your question to call yes it does thank you very much thank you for asking that question and I encourage others to do so as well so please don’t be shy now I mentioned briefly a difference between black letter law and equity we might touch upon that later but if you if you come across the discussions about a legal principle versus an equitable principle there’s a difference in law between law and equity and now it’s all a bit hazy at this stage but damn that really comes through when we talk about some remedies so if a remedy in a court action is that you want to obtain some money then that’s a legal remedy but if you want to stop someone from doing something babs through an injunction that’s what we call an equitable remedy now I go into the whole history of law but just very briefly back in the Middle Ages the black letter law was supplemented by an entirely different jurisdiction which was based on fairness and it didn’t matter what the statute said it was where a fair result was determined we call that equity and eventually those two branches of law fused into the one area so but we still had this arc a distinction between legal remedies and equitable remedies anyway we’ll Lum I’ll leave it at that for the moment now any any other questions before I move on briefly I don’t know if any of you are planning to practice as a lawyer but if you do there is considerable advantage in having a specialization in practice that’s particularly relevant in environmental law and we have of course the planning and environment court and we have many practitioners who practice it exclusively in that court and they may come from a scientific background for example and sometimes having that other discipline which you bring into the practice of law provides you with considerable advantages over other practitioners in law who come from a purely legal background and more so if they come from a general legal background all right now this course I’ve mentioned that I’ll be relying upon that text environmental law very heavily but there are some others that you might want to consider there’s the publication by philippa England sustainable planning in Queensland that’s excellent if you’re really involved in litigation there’s the community linnekens Handbook which is quite a cheap publication about forty dollars and it’s produced by the environmental defender’s office the author is an eater 00 heart and finally I’d come in to you environmental law lexisnexis case summaries by brand Jessup online the resources are well firstly the study guide modules by dr Lawson Smith which you’ll find on Moodle aust Lee now that’s a u.s. TL double I that’s a really important one costly and then of course sir more familiar names perhaps LexisNexis and Thomson Reuters but I’ll just stop there when I talk about the other resources yes yes Lori yeah I did am course last semester and

the lecture told me that I sleeve it’s not really it’s not how far it’s not it’s not authorized no but I love it okay but you’re right it’s not that lecturer was correct if you want to go to the authorized on ariat you need to go to the Queensland Parliament parliamentary website that’s easily accessed through court and Queensland Parliament but I don’t know I just go to Austria I know it’s it’s not authorized but it’s extremely useful and I think it would be a rare instance where auslly can’t be relied upon categorically so I give it a big tick you may prefer the authorized publications online instead but I think auslese the way to go but no thank you Laurie now can I just mention about the study guides by dr. Lawson Smith I’ll give you an exam tip right from the start if you know your textbook and you have a good working knowledge of the statutes that are relevant to this area of practice I guess I’m really talking about the sustainable planning act and the environment protection and biodiversity conservation act which is the Commonwealth act then that’s probably all you need so I think the textbook and the legislation if you want bonus points then you can look at other material certainly you can look at lexisnexis but a lot of that is written by gerrybates anyway so it’s in the textbook and you can look at done dr Lawson Smith’s notes now dr. Smith has prepared excellent notes but they are of a quite a theoretical written from a theoretical perspective whereas I’m very keen for you to have much more of a general working knowledge rather than a theoretical knowledge that’s just the way that’s the what the focus that I’ll be having a list now so that’s my exam tip right from the start there are any questions about what I’ve just said okay and don’t forget if you if don’t want to talk you can use the chat function to you know who was that sorry all right did you know that do you know what was the second act isn’t it oh sorry the environment protection and provide yet and biodiversity conservation act yep it’s 1999’s the Commodores legislation all right now tonight will be a relatively short session I do try to make the sessions no more than an hour sometimes I’m successful most times I’m not I’m sorry but chapter one Bates I’m going to make this session so you can actually follow along in the text if you want to i’ll add some quotes from the text and i’ll add some commentary mate says that the development of environmental or in australia has been concentrated effectively into the last 40 years and that’s certainly true when i was studying there was no such thing as environmental law it just didn’t exist so what we’re learning learning here is extraordinarily reasoned and it’s also an area of practice that is growing extraordinarily quickly number of reasons for that when one thinks about policy and politics I guess it’s easy to conclude that the most important things of a for the related politics tend to be things like health education and the environment so these are really big issues politically and because they are and because they tend to be a motive in many ways there is a lot of policy and once we start to have policy we then start to have legislation which is drawn to enforce or to enact that policy and hence we have this mushrooming effect in terms of environmental legislation at one point three bait says environmental law is mainly a product of legislation and that’s true now i will just aggressive here for a moment and talk in terms of but what is the law again if i can say what the law is firstly we have statutes which is also known as ax a cts capital a Thank You Nicole and that’s prepared by both Parliament’s so the two

acts that I referred you to that I really want you to know are the sustainable planning act which is Queensland Parliament and the environment protection and biodiversity conservation act which is Commonwealth so their acts of parliament and they are effectively putting policy into law then we have what’s called the common law and the common law is judge-made law so they’re the two main areas of law and I just wanted to give you some idea of the difference between legislation versus common law environmental law is really a law in relation to regulating process it’s all about taking making sure that impacts on the natural environment are identified and taken into account in decision making and that’s from Bates therefore I conclude from that that environmental law is largely based around administrative law I’ll just regress and say that because there was no such thing as environmental law 40 years ago it wasn’t started it wasn’t taught at universities and it wasn’t started as such that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have a long background in different ways in different branches of law and in many ways environmental law draws its content from other branches of law such as corporations law companies criminal law in terms of prosecutions and will touch upon that as well that’s both at state and federal level towards law now tort is t 0 RTS and if you haven’t practiced in law or you haven’t studied law that may seem an odd word but torts is all about civil wrongs as opposed to criminal wrongs so back in the 70s when I was studying law I would learn about the law of nuisance which is a tort or the law of negligence which is a taught these are actions involving civil roles so environmental or draws upon tort law as well it draws upon contract law real property law constitutional law I’ve already raised Minister div law it touches on Civil Procedure international law alternative dispute resolution and legal ethics so even though it’s one subject it incorporates aspects of maybe a dozen other legal subjects so for us to get through this course there’s an awful lot of law that we need to touch upon at 113 bait makes the comment the environmental movement must rank as one of the great social revolutions of history in most countries the responsibility for environmental degradation was laid squarely at the feet of industry manufacturing concerns had treated air and water as a sort of natural conveyor belt to carry away all kinds of harmful effluence which could have been disposed of in less convenient or more expensive ways but prior to the environmental revolution there was no pressure on them to do otherwise the reason I raised that issue is that it is as a result of political pressure which leads to the enactment of legislation and from that the litigation cycle begins because that legislation is then interpreted by the executive and then ultimately reviewed by the judiciary now I hope I haven’t confused everyone totally at this stage two questions there alright if I could now touch on the legal system yes jettison is the comment is the Commonwealth and the federal da Commonwealth I mean federal is the same oh yes kommodor means federal yes thank you any other questions there all right thank you sorry John just one year’s Nicole um with thee with the Commonwealth and so that separatist state law yes so the ECP

be act is is federal it’s a sustainable planning act state or is that federal as well no sorry it’s state it’s a state act ok so I’ve selected one state and one federal act for you so which one does one overrule the other oh that is it because they’re in two different fields or busy I suspect there’s cross over there there’s certainly crossover where a Commonwealth or federal legislation conflicts with state legislation the Commonwealth does prevail that’s section 109 I think of the Constitution but they do work in different fields okay thank you thank you excuse me John yes and just based on the bottom the notes on the bottom of the text on the very bottom of the page it seemed to be sequentially numbered and other they reference back to that particular section of article you’re eating sorry what was that are the notes in the book yeah on the very bottom part of the part of each page there seemed to be a sequential number series of notes you look at my notes in the National text in Bible in Bates’s book yeah John it’s referencing it’s the referencing we’ve never encountered that before we’ve only dealt with Harvard referencing is I think you raise that in discussion stone to call I did indeed thank you look I think it’d be great if we could resolve this done you’re looking at Bates now are you yeah all right can you provide the coke go to a page but page 20 okay funny yep write down embodiments both 68 yep wrong we should be revising the 70s environmental law challenge New South Wales yes it is that has ever laid back to 1.36 okay well certainly nicole is right that is an example of referencing that’s the type of legal referencing that we use I must confess I’m not familiar with Harvard referencing so I don’t know I can’t explain the difference but all the author has done there is said when quoting Ryan has made a reference of the source so Ryan made that comment in in that particular journal article in 2001 so in quoting Ryan all three but they turned on one Ryan is the author yes that’s it in that journal but look for those of you who were bit puzzled about legal referencing once again I ton refer to the book and just you’ll get a feel for the way that the author has very well referenced documents and you’ll see the way cases for example a written even little things like they’re in italics you you’d wonder why that is the case but dumb let’s see in chapter one have you seen the drama just on that one point oh so you’re green when you’re reading 1.36 on page 20 yeah is that taken from Ryan’s original transcript or as Ryan’s an example of the transcript that’s being written right certainly it inside the way I read it is that the author Bates is saying that Ryan is one author who has espoused a certain warning it’s not a direct quote but in relation to the proposition that we cannot measure success in terms of volumes of legislation etc Bates is quoting Ryan as authority for that proposition not quoting Ryan but referencing Ryan as the source or rum a source for the proposition that the author is making yeah gotcha yeah wasn’t clear i wanted a good right all right stuff Nyjah so to quit is Lauren when you you’re right when you’re writing is easy when you’re paraphrase is that like running word-for-word honest kind of crazy just on making your room and summaries or exactly paraphrasing is is certainly not writing word for word if if you write word for word that’s a quote or a director transcript but paraphrasing is read ascribing or describing in your own words what the author is saying now

there’s a very fine line as to when you should reference when you’re paraphrasing and when you need not reference the general rule is that you want to be on the safe side so for example it would have been very easy for gerrybates to have said we cannot measure success in terms of volumes of legislation comma prosecutions undertaken or orders issued and without having acknowledged the work of Ryan the reader would have believed that Bates was making that proposition from his own independent thinking but being cautious perhaps overly cautious arguably Bates has referenced Ryan as authority for that proposition even though bait has not quoted from Ryan does that answer your question Laurie there’s nothing at all nothing at all wrong with them referencing even when you paraphrase it’s it’s the way to go it adds authority to your statements but then what happens if you get the wrong mean when you paraphrase you know like you get the wrong that can happen yet that’s a risk I’m not sure I have an answer to that other than don’t get it wrong any questions there all right look I just want to talk about the legal system briefly we do have of course the planning and environment court which is a specialist court such family courts another specialist court Family Court is federal planning an environment court is state it’s at district to court level in Queensland we have the Supreme Court is the highest level the district court below that they’re both presided over by judges below that we have the magistrate’s court presided by magistrate’s and below that we have Q cat presided by members although there are there is a Supreme Court judge and a district court judge or number of district court judges presiding in Q can as well um so with the specialist courts we have this no movement towards specialist lawyers who are practice in those areas and I have spoken to a QC your hope will be able to come along and dumb address you as a guest speaker at some stage during the course to give you some idea of how the planning and environment court works there are some things that you need to be aware of and Bates refers to this at 1.25 the criminal burden of proof is beyond reasonable doubt in civil cases there’s a lower standard which is on the balance of probabilities and that contrasts with the scientific criteria of probability which is based on a ninety-five percent confidence level in an animal or human study so again my comments are really directed for those of you who are of a scientific background when something needs to be established in a cord you need to think about what type of cord we’re dealing with and the the big distinction there is criminal proceedings versus civil proceedings if someone is to be found guilty of a crime then prosecution must establish its case beyond reasonable doubt you’ve probably heard that term before however if we’re talking about a civil case it’s what’s more likely than not is the relevant test so if someone is suing on a civil debt or a civil action I just have to prove that it’s more likely than not as opposed to beyond all reasonable doubt what that means then is that if as a scientist for example you’re giving evidence in a court as an expert in a criminal sense it may be that your evidence is rejected however in a civil sense your evidence may be accepted because of those different burdens of proof 50 50 vs beyond any doubt at all which is reasonable can I just also make comment about a dr i mentioned briefly that alternate or alternative whichever one you want dispute resolution is an area of practice in its own right it’s relevant to environmental law because there are there is a push in

environmental law to send parties to alternative dispute resolution to save costs particularly merits appeals ADR is some mostly recognized through mediation but there is also consideration and arbitration other forms of ADR or alternative dispute resolution and I just my final comment before inviting any questions for tonight is at 1.32 Bates makes reference to this quota a further barrier to the involvement of more lawyers is the restrictive code of legal ethics which recognizes only a duty to the client and the court now that when I read that it really rang true because in the practice of law while we do have a duty to the client the only thing that overrides that is the tuna to the court in other words we can’t mislead the court we have a duty as a judicial officer not to do that but ensuring that we we don’t bridge that Judah to the court our only duty is to the client what that means is as lawyers are practicing an environmental law we don’t have a duty to the environment we don’t have a duty to the public generally and that therefore means that in environmental law there may be some problems associated with the way in which the court cases are structured and conducted the CAD apart I can think of is in relation to let’s say child protection proceedings so that if a lawyer is representing a parent where an application is made for the child to be taken from that parents care the court has the power and will very often appoint a lawyer to represent the interests of the children now it occurred to me that we could probably look at something like that for environmental law where a court might appoint a lawyer who specifically represent the interests of the general public in terms of the environment generally it hasn’t happened yet but it occurred to me that that’s the sort of thing that may occur in the future all right now I’m not sure if I promised you a short session today but there it is that’s all I propose to talk about from chapter 1 of Bates but I do hope that you’ve all read it yourselves and as a result there may be some things that people think are worthy of comment that I haven’t touched upon if so and if you’d like to share it please do so now you can use the chat facility as well and I saw your note they’ve done in relation to the notes at the bottom of the page from earlier so thank you for that ok John I am going to say a couple of things um I actually found it fairly chewy the whole I mean I bread it I read ahead on a couple of chapters because food subject actually does worry me I have to admit because I find it a very foreign concept with the because you’re you know you’re discussing the exam questions earlier should we get copies of those apps and actually spend some time reading over there the answer is yes but the dirt selectively do it carefully look out of what i’m trying to do tonight is just reassure you that even though this is a very subject and in some ways a very difficult subject we’re not going to make it insurmountable we’re going to make it bite-sized we’re going to make it comfortable and interesting and I’ll probably use this word fun a bit because I do want you to have fun with it if you know it’s an area that it’s it’s so easy to become interested in this topic that I’d like to think that Bates becomes a bit of a page-turner for you you can’t wait to get to the next sentence or the next chapter because it is highly readable and it’s very interesting it’s very topical so I hope that we can sort of work towards that the other thing that I’m trying to do is reassure you that the exam is going to be based on theoretical a satirical material I don’t want you to be reading too widely on this there’s there’s already enough material there add to cope and you may have to read it a few times sometimes I

think it’s a good idea to almost speed read the first time through just to get a general feel for it you know if you’re confronted by a chapter of 50 pages you know you don’t want to get bogged down on the first half page if you know what I mean but just let it go over your head a little bit go through I’m a big fan of highlighters and tabs you can probably see my book full of pink tabs already and lots and lots of highlighting all the way through so you know I’d recommend you do that that’s going to make it easier for you for the exam as well now Don has said can I post the audience with the legislation don’t go out and buy it if you go to an Ostler sorry Lori if you go to ask Lee and I’ll repeat that against a u.s. TL i I um you’ll find the axe what I’ll do is I’ll see if I can create a link and i’ll give you a link on moodle for those acts now particularly with the Commonwealth legislation it’ll drive you crazy if you try and read it all but just just read it selectively probably you can read it in reference to Bates so if you see a.m if you see a piece of legislation referred to in bates and you want to read that then then you can go through auslly to the legislation now it doesn’t have to be just the two acts I’ve said you might want to you know you might read something about the Civil Liability Act in the material or the coastal protection act and you might tell well that’s interesting say go to austell E and do that does anyone use Auslan earlier no one’s used it all right okay my 18 year old daughter introduced me to it I did she okay um yeah try to–there that in mind I’ve got it I’ve got to remember I’m not talking to loss to 10 there’s not meant to be a criticism at all but just I have to make sure that I don’t fall into the trap of assuming that you know things that that you wouldn’t have had dumb reason to consider before so I’ll keep that in mind so don’t be daunted Nicole but thank you very much for your comment and I’ll make a note to post legislation any other questions oh yeah I’m a couple mate um yes Boris Spiro sorry here I’m the exam that that will be doing I’ve seen a little old ones and they’re open book yes you know is that the general process for this one as well exactly I won’t be departing too much from that formula that’s another example it’ll probably i think the exam from memory was last year was five out of seven I think that might have been worth ten marks each it’ll be something very similar to that okay no worries I know because you okay great and that assessment won the first where we look at the planning environment course yes um you talked before about it there’s other criminal proceedings or civil proceedings we reach the small into it’s a simple sort of evil yeah well sometimes I can’t believe they can blur the dumb head of it and look share some thoughts if you don’t mind on Moodle can I just give you this thing i’m not going to mark if i see that you’re sharing your thoughts on moodle and you’re engaging with other students in an interactive discussion I’ll read that and how can I say that you’re going to get some credit you get some credit for being proactive and being willing to share now I can’t really say any more than that but I just I guess what I’m really saying is put your thoughts down in the discussion through Moodle I’ll monitor all that if I think someone’s get going offline or why rock-ola come in and correct it but I think it’s really worthwhile having some open discussions about it so if you think that it’s some the case has a criminal law flavor to it spero please make that comment see what other students say okay thank you there was another question or comment yeah I do is I was wondering d are you happy for us to like send out work over to like a

printing company and clean up the legislation promote your study notes say about oh cool so you have this book so what was it what do you want to do lawyer you want to send it off to a printing company yeah pretty company have them print off their study guide for the night giving me notes by dr Lawson Smith the study modern modular now your study guides on a Troy have any study guides are such sorry okay okay yeah I’ll monitor just it mostly based around the little legislation sorry the the textbook okay thank you thanks sorry no you’re right i’ll have some one day but not now there any other questions okay nobody’s put anything new on the chat forum that being the case I might look to wrap it up thank you very much for your attendance I hope that you’re enjoying the course so far I encourage you to keep ahead with your reading just one week is fine and if you have any questions please feel free to raise them through the general discussion or bring them along to our online sessions which generally will be tuesdays at five-thirty so unless there any closing questions it’s always fun yeah um I don’t know whether other people have experienced it yet but with the textbook this seems to be quite a bit of delay in getting him oh that’s a week and a half and only r I’ve got mine only right last night so I don’t know whether whether everyone even might not all had their textbook but there seems to be a big delay in sending them out this year for some reason I noticed that a few students have made that comment sorry hoping that they’re filtering through pretty quickly now but thank you don it no worries thank you alright well thank you very much all for your participation I’ll stop recording a lie in the meaning now and that will speak to you soon bye