[Policy Debates] [E3] Visas, visitors and Gigaba's legacy

welcome to the episode of policy debates your source for discussion reporting of issues affecting South Africa I’m Nicholas woodsmith a politics and philosophy student at UC Chi and the chairman of the cape town branch of the african students for liberty with me here today a Christian and Martin today we’re going to be discussing South Africa’s immigration and visa laws how they impede personal travel as well as our economy these regulations summer in summary include the following that foreigners must visit South African embassies abroad in person when they apply for a visa so to record their biometric information and their Guardians of a child in South Africa but traveling to throughout South Africa must carry an unabridged birth certificate when traveling with the child this has been site or this policy has been cited as trying to prevent human trafficking in South Africa what do you guys think about this yeah um I’m Christian uh yeah as did I started with this thing last year I think and I’ve been delaying it and delaying it from implementing it because every there’s so much public opposition to this from you know the tourism industry and from people in general and I think government just died now to implement it they struggle to implement anything and the reasons they give for its on good enough and and they will be the other unintended consequences in effect this will have on the economy and our tourism which is probably one of our biggest export there’s nothing positive or good comes from this um so yeah I don’t know Martin yeah so um i’m martin i’m a louis student at the university of victoria and i’m also an executive board member with african students for liberty now uh I I think I’ve made it clear like if you follow my my social media stuff that I do on that I’m I’m pretty pro open border and stuff so it really doesn’t bother me at all and when South Africans complain in or out Odin zimbabweans and all those things in South Africa I’ve always been bro bro open border I wouldn’t care if they took down all the fences and stuff um so that really influenced is my my my strong opposition to the strong kind of controls and especially the irrationality of or more DD the in proportionality of these visa regulations like I never even knew that that child trafficking was a thing across South African borders and I think from what I’ve read it isn’t like the i think i read in the last three years there were only like 20 cases now okay that’s tragic in and of itself but to upset the entire tourism industry while the anc bloody an ain’t she come okay i don’t know if he’s a communist but the anc tourism minister is saying listen this is gonna this is really hurting the industry so clearly melissa gaba is on that’s the the minister of home affairs he’s being he’s being really am a control freak ish here i am what i what i read um in another article is that he wants to make securing south africa’s borders his legacy project and he knows that if he if he gives in on this like if he says okay yeah i’ll acknowledge that the the policy is it’s not it’s not going to work it’s going to be bad for South Africa then his career is essentially over uh I think that’s what they think is happening here it’s all about about this individual give Melissa GABA and yeah it’s um it’s it’s sad it’s very sad I mean uh of what all of my or okay Darren rights at the independent entrepreneurship group on their website all the links will be in the description below by the way he says that and then yeah the city is his article is full of my excited research studies that have been conducted he says it’s a sense to easier for for Africans now that is some other Africans north of our borders to get into to Europe or America than it is to get in in two NT South Africa right now and that is a that saying something that’s that’s very very unfortunate I mean it’s I I don’t really know how and she isn’t recalling the minister of gum Home Affairs 44 in some

illogical policy it’s it’s it’s very sad yeah uh yeah Nicolas what do you think well I just think that’s above all what you really be a Christian already said is that the excuse is completely irrelevant because you know as we all know human traffickers do obey laws and regulations and oh man oh yeah just like drug dealers and murderers but the biggest thing that disinfecting is our number one prospective terrorists and another thing in another pot South Africans trying to travel to other countries and it goes back to what you said to open borders and this is a gross violation of our right to free travel well not free as in communist free as in like libertarian free and yeah so this is actually affected my family in two ways first with my sister going to Germany it was a huge else hell trying to get all the paperwork together took almost a year the old paperwork together to just so she could travel to something which on the German side of it they’ll completely fine it’s just all our crap and on the other side when this was first introduced my on tues Korean was litter was visiting her family in South Korea and then this legislation hit and she was stuck in South Korea until they could prove that she had a ride to into the country even though she’s married to my uncle user South Africa and so just completely it’s terrible this is it’s unenforceable but it’s against the people that they trying to hurt but it just hurts the people who are actually no abiding citizens you contribute to this country what and I just got some stats here that the tirst and hospitality industry II quantity 3 percentage our gdp gdp which is extremely important seeing how much of our economy is falling apart and give and employs over 600,000 people which is even more important with how about unemployment is in this country and what this is what this is doing its just shrinking in industry which is one of the few fundamental industries that we still have in this country which isn’t being affected by union strikes and she a collapsing mines but due to a the minute of the commodity I’m commodity crash and this is you know this excludes all the wealth that actually comes from other foreign consumers this thing is it’s not only the hotel’s that make money when tourists come in its shops or stay by it it’s the beaches which have ice cream vendors it’s the pier it’s just the fact that every single bit of money that they bring into the country it just permeates other things that a lot of people Jake trickle-down economics but it does exist and some a long line when we bring more capital into this country it’s going to help people and this is just this type of legislation makes it almost impossible for tourists to actually want to come to this country when you know these other pretty countries around the planet that they can just go to and but as you said Martin the minister’s just embarrassed he can’t risk losing face he knows it if he moves away from this policy he thought he doesn’t know he fears that he’s just going to he’s not ever gonna be able to come back from it but the promise he doesn’t realize he’s sinking an entire country with them um what do you think well you’re our thoughts go to Martin first or not any anyone who ever was reply you you Watson mentioned the the Kagawa’s legacy and I’m like who cares about Kagawa’s making maybe leakage we care and that’s is that thing you’re what you said but uh nobody else cares and maybe he thinks other people care I think ninety percent of the country doesn’t even know he is well now they do because he’s made a name for himself for the wrong reasons but to quote smarts and museum so from from anemia and just to quite some of the figures I say we might lose 270,000 tourists 20,000 21,000 jobs a year and it will cost South Africa almost 10 billion around the earth just the loss of income from risk making it more difficult for people to come and that is it’s tragic because I mean it’s lots of jobs and it’s a foreign currency that we need I mean the red is crashing at the moment and we could really do with some some dollars and some euros coming into the country uh and as you said it’s it’s a it creates a lot of jobs and a lot of wallbang I mean jobs and and so on and if we want to go to Europe for example we have to physically go to go to also do the biometric start to getting visas and so on and it’s almost like web spiteful and saying okay

then everyone else is going to have to do the same except for where Germany or Holland we don’t have the money in the the we’re not as well organized and we don’t have the infrastructure to kind of allow the thousands and thousands of Europeans who want to come here every summer to do their biometric tests and you know so what about the a German living in North Germany or somewhere na needs to go down to Berlin or some way to to get his fingerprints take another South African embassy before we confirm yeah and that’s a thing South Africa where in this in this game South Africa and international tourism where a price taker were not a price setter people don’t have to come to South Africa South Africa is one out of many many options that people have to go to and they choose to come here because it’s cheap and it’s easy to come and there’s lots to do in lots to see and if you make it difficult for them they simply just not going to come ok that’s fine let’s go to South America or the US or or other parts of Europe instead um so it’s your it I don’t see any benefit to this and I don’t think human trafficking such a big problem and even if it is I mean the human traffickers traffickers will just get a they’ll just find a way around it like they always do you know yeah yeah I mean do the human traffickers even use the the bloody border post I mean come on no national airport yeah it’s I mean we’re worse is logic coming from I mean if you’re smuggling someone out of South African today in the northern parts of Africa I mean only our border with with some Bob way and the part of Mozambique is really fence from from what I’ve read now now maybe the border through today sir I don’t even think it’s entirely fenced our border with Botswana I don’t even think that it’s entirely fence so I mean really if you’re gonna smuggle someone in or out there these regulations are not going to stop you and yeah that is it this this kind of illogical disconnect between the government and then what’s actually happening on the ground that’s it’s worrying and um what what Boehner is me and said it seems like a there’s been a big outcry about about the regulations but I think a lot of people still underestimate how um how important tourism is of African what i read recently is that South African and many international rankings it regularly um tops the list of the best tourist destinations in the world I mean some Africa has everything Cape Town is one of the consider one of the most beautiful cities in the world that’s why it guest gets a lot of tourism and um I mean we have lush green forests in the National area we have deserts and in the northwest and yeah it’s it’s tourism is a massive part of part of what part of our economy and like Christian says that is not really that the beauty and stuff here isn’t really enough to you to make a foreigner is really uh help us you know in getting–getting this these regulations like repealed or something they will simply go elsewhere but swarm has a lot of what we have to offer arm mozambique as our beaches botswana as our wildlife and maybe as our desert so I mean we’re just gonna end up helping our neighbors in their own tourism industries yeah so I I don’t know III I guess um alright I hope that the guy who is gonna follow Melissa geauga Gigaba up after he retired so it’s fired hopefully it’s gonna reverse all this silly nonsense yes I I really hope so it I mean uh this in addition to you to do the all the other anti-foreigner measures that our government is taking like banning foreign ownership of agricultural land and Nancy forfeits it’s worrying its warning it’s as if we’re gonna become a rogue pariah state or something at some at some stage in the future I really hope we can avoid that yeah it does seem like we’re heading towards a rogue state status especially with the the seed a Sudanese politician guy Connie remembers name now here I’ll Bashar yeah but and just one last thing I think should dress I was mentioned in there neighing article about how a lot of people have actually come in support of these regulations because they of the fear of immigrants and I think the the article

which will be linked below it is basically it proves that immigration is really not that big of a deal in fact I actually really really like immigrants it’s like free investors its investors you don’t even have to add a market for they literally pour over your border then make make businesses which typically businesses people that locals don’t want to get involved in but we still need and then those if employment regulations actually permitted it and if the phobia permitted it those businesses could be employing locals and they would be employing locals if the our economic atmosphere actually allowed it but they’re not taking jobs they’re just doing things our locals were aren’t going be doing anyway so uh yeah yep solid data you go ahead okay yeah as you said I mean let’s be honest who runs who runs the shops in the rural areas it’s Chinese and Somalian people it’s not South African if you go to a restaurant in caps on your waiter is most likely going to be a Congolese or Zimbabwean so I don’t think that that’s a bad thing I think it’s people willing to do the best work for the lowest wage it’s just just how it works it’s not it’s just if I can apply to that it’s just because they not entirely entitled they’re not receiving a grant so they feel that they have to work they don’t feel like they belong yeah and that insecurity is actually in this case is a good thing and personally I don’t want them to feel insecure because I actually like them and the insecurities are only a nice thing but on the other side because they know that they could be kicked at any time and because they know that they don’t want to be kicked out there rather be productive to maximize the utility and that’s why a lot of time they do end up being more economically productive and a lot of our locals yeah certainly uh I think this is a been confirmed actually buy the business community in South Africa for a long time now when when they have a choice they avoid hiring South Africans if they know they have a choice of forum especially other Africans in South Africa they will hire them and this is they say it’s because they have a better work effect they they’re far more productive and and most importantly from some it’s the same article that talked about how high we rank and tourism that I read South Africans are extremely extremely entitled and that is why we have a very bad work ethic and a comparatively low productivity the the offer I can’t remember is it’s it’s monthly um rights for I think it’s for the sweatin or something but is usually sun TV a lot anyway he says the business community prefers foreigners because South Africans are way too entitled and we don’t we don’t want to work we want to have everything given to us and these foreigners are really filling that that need for unskilled labor that we’re lacking so yet our unemployment really confirms confirmed certain extent and yeah I I really hope that the the xenophobia um like just subsides a bit because really if we want to stop foreigners from stealing our job so you say we really need you um look at ourselves and stop being entitled little children I think that’s a good place to start yeah and I don’t know if you guys saw an other Adam abebe the vice-chancellor of its said this week he said that things like PE has done wonders for entrepreneurship in stellenbosch which is what what it wasn’t supposed to do so yeah you know stuff like that it it’s a complete failure and I just want to link that to what you guys said about entitlement yes people feel entitled they feel entitled to 33 things and and you know easy easier comparatively easier access to side jobs and grants and you know why do I have to work hard and whether it’s because of the past or because of whatever i don’t know but uh but it’s a it’s a problem it’s not helping us oh yes hmm so now I’m has been pretty productive productive discussion I think what we can take out of this is that well we’ve it’s self-evident that the policy itself is bad and I think that the biggest thing is that the the minister is just too insecure about ur to actually back down and this is just going to further damage our economy it’s basically like every single law that’s

Africa ever has now are there any closing comment well I think you summed it up perfectly I it’s a it’s now become a political thing and he’s too scared to back down and even you have other minutes ministers saying that this is it’s not it’s not a bad idea and it really isn’t and you know the meta people the stakeholders the the tourism industry the the people will be massive most affected have all said this is this is a bad idea and the people will come here do the biometric tests and Germany so they can come see lines in the kruger lee they’re not going to steal anyone’s jobs so why make it more difficult for them to come here and spend the euros and have a good time and tell their friends to come over as well so it’s it’s it’s actually it’s just embarrassing yeah yeah i I just hope Shane our minds in the ANC prevail and and just like get a militia gamma fire or something or or like Mike making the deputy minister of something else he should get out of this portfolio very quickly and someone should really are undo the damage is done yeah I think that’s we if this is not another house we should conclude there i think we’ve kind of exhausted the subject fire you see which i should make a petition maybe dog might not work to be fun let’s vote to move them to the women children and people with disabilities department oh yes sir okay so i hope you enjoyed this episode of policy debates please like and subscribe and make sure to check out our blog at sell dot civil rights but all today and to like our facebook page at fb.com / s a libertarian thanks for listening